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MattHenry

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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ANTICHRIST[/FONT]​
1x1.gif
There are only 4 verses in Scripture that contain the word antichrist. If you have doubts search the Blue Letter Bible (KJV quoted below):

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

In the KJV the word antichrist is not selectively capitalized, and there was no upper and lower case in the original text. Clearly, from the verses above, antichrist is a SPIRIT, or THE spirit, that lives in the heart of anybody that denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or denies that Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh. Every man that denies the Son has not the Father and is antichrist, and also is an antichrist. Jewish blindness, however, is a separate issue as per Romans 11.

Here is a U-Tube of antichrists that will break your heart.
Here is a group of antichrists graduating from kindergarten.

Since there are billions of antichrists - and no shortage from John's day forward - it would seem there cannot be a single antichrist - not in John's day - not today. An individual antichrist can only be just ANOTHER antichrist.

The following verse is sometimes understood to suggest an individual past or future "Antichrist", but Scripture shows us how to understand this verse perfectly:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

How can we have a singular and plural antichrist in the same sentence? We can develop our understanding using hermeneutics by looking to another verse that also uses the term antichrist in a singular fashion:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You can see the singular "that", "spirit", "it" in this sentence and singular "antichrist", just like the singular "antichrist" in 1 John 2:18. The translators gave us a little extra push in 1 John 4:3 by inserting the word [spirit] a second time, further clarifying that the spirit of antichrist is this singular entity. Now look at how this makes perfect sense in the "little children" verse:

John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that[the spirit of]antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

An understanding of the above verse remains unchanged with or without the words that I added for the purpose of this exercise. Finally look also at how beautifully parallel these two verse snippets are:

"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"
"ye have heard that it should come"

Look at the fruit of misunderstanding. Some say "The" "Antichrist" was Nero. Perhaps suggesting "he" is over and done with. Futurists are looking for some future individual "Antichrist" of the silver screen yet to come. Others you can find on the Internet, of which there is no shortage, proffer guesses from the leader of Spain, to the Pope, to Ronald Reagan.

Meanwhile there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone. This doesn't even count the atheist neighbor down your block where your kids go to hang out. The Church has been deceived into looking in the wrong place. Has the Church's looking for some individual "Antichrist", past or present, also made it look like so much buffoonery to those outside of the Church?

It is human nature to want to believe in concepts such as "The" "Antichrist". What kid didn't take a flying leap to get into bed, so that what ever was under the bed wouldn't grab their ankles? Without the concept of a boogeyman Hollywood would go broke and the majority fiction novelists would be homeless.

But here is how Satan succeeded the most through this concept. The term antichrist has been removed from the Christian vocabulary except when used to describe some individual boogeyman. Who would casually refer to the atheist that lives down the block as an antichrist, yet wouldn't this be correct? How much more soul searching might that individual do if we did? Who have you heard refer to the 1.5 billion Muslims as antichrists? A term that should be a normal part of Christian vocabulary has been stolen by the enemy. Just ask the guy next to you in Church next Sunday "what is the antichrist?" to get an idea of how this term is understood in the Church.

Consider also that God likely had John write so much later than the others so that he could address the myriad of heresies that had already infiltrated the Church, even in John's day. Consider all of the "overcommeth"ing of Revelation Chapters 2 and 3. The above verses in effect saying "you've heard that antichrist is coming, but it's already here!". Even if there had been such a concept of a single antichrist in the Church, consider the wording: "ye have heard". Perhaps like "ye have heard that toads give people warts", but that doesn't mean that it's true.

Consider a similar verse:
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.4 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 

HisdaughterJen

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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]ANTICHRIST[/FONT]​
1x1.gif
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There are only 4 verses in Scripture that contain the word antichrist. If you have doubts search the Blue Letter Bible (KJV quoted below):[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the KJV the word antichrist is not selectively capitalized, and there was no upper and lower case in the original text. Clearly, from the verses above, antichrist is a SPIRIT, or THE spirit, that lives in the heart of anybody that denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or denies that Jesus Christ IS come in the flesh. Every man that denies the Son has not the Father and is antichrist, and also is an antichrist. Jewish blindness, however, is a separate issue as per Romans 11.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here is a U-Tube of antichrists that will break your heart.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here is a group of antichrists graduating from kindergarten.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Since there are billions of antichrists - and no shortage from John's day forward - it would seem there cannot be a single antichrist - not in John's day - not today. An individual antichrist can only be just ANOTHER antichrist.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The following verse is sometimes understood to suggest an individual past or future "Antichrist", but Scripture shows us how to understand this verse perfectly:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]How can we have a singular and plural antichrist in the same sentence? We can develop our understanding using hermeneutics by looking to another verse that also uses the term antichrist in a singular fashion:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]You can see the singular "that", "spirit", "it" in this sentence and singular "antichrist", just like the singular "antichrist" in 1 John 2:18. The translators gave us a little extra push in 1 John 4:3 by inserting the word [spirit] a second time, further clarifying that the spirit of antichrist is this singular entity. Now look at how this makes perfect sense in the "little children" verse:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that[the spirit of]antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]An understanding of the above verse remains unchanged with or without the words that I added for the purpose of this exercise. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Finally look also at how beautifully parallel these two verse snippets are:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"ye have heard that antichrist shall come"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"ye have heard that it should come"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Look at the fruit of misunderstanding. Some say "The" "Antichrist" was Nero. Perhaps suggesting "he" is over and done with. Futurists are looking for some future individual "Antichrist" of the silver screen yet to come. Others you can find on the Internet, of which there is no shortage, proffer guesses from the leader of Spain, to the Pope, to Ronald Reagan.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Meanwhile there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone. This doesn't even count the atheist neighbor down your block where your kids go to hang out. The Church has been deceived into looking in the wrong place. Has the Church's looking for some individual "Antichrist", past or present, also made it look like so much buffoonery to those outside of the Church? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It is human nature to want to believe in concepts such as "The" "Antichrist". What kid didn't take a flying leap to get into bed, so that what ever was under the bed wouldn't grab their ankles? Without the concept of a boogeyman Hollywood would go broke and the majority fiction novelists would be homeless.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But here is how Satan succeeded the most through this concept. The term antichrist has been removed from the Christian vocabulary except when used to describe some individual boogeyman. Who would casually refer to the atheist that lives down the block as an antichrist, yet wouldn't this be correct? How much more soul searching might that individual do if we did? Who have you heard refer to the 1.5 billion Muslims as antichrists? A term that should be a normal part of Christian vocabulary has been stolen by the enemy. Just ask the guy next to you in Church next Sunday "what is the antichrist?" to get an idea of how this term is understood in the Church.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Consider also that God likely had John write so much later than the others so that he could address the myriad of heresies that had already infiltrated the Church, even in John's day. Consider all of the "overcommeth"ing of Revelation Chapters 2 and 3. The above verses in effect saying "you've heard that antichrist is coming, but it's already here!". Even if there had been such a concept of a single antichrist in the Church, consider the wording: "ye have heard". Perhaps like "ye have heard that toads give people warts", but that doesn't mean that it's true. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Consider a similar verse:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.4 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"The folly of interpreters has been to foretell times and things by this prophecy [Revelation], as if God designed to make them prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify men's curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own providence, not the interpreters', be then manifested thereby to the world. For the event of things predicted many ages before will then be a convincing argument that the world is governed by Providence." - Sir Isaac Newton[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/FONT]
There's no doubt that Islam is beyond evil and anti-christ. They make no apologies for it.

So, if Islam is the beast/antichrist/false prophet, what prophecies remain before Jesus' return?
 
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MattHenry

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There's no doubt that Islam is beyond evil and anti-christ. They make no apologies for it.

So, if Islam is the beast/antichrist/false prophet, what prophecies remain before Jesus' return?
Well we see later in Revelation that there are some horns, or kings, that will rule with the beast. But it would seem they may not be seated as kings, so who is to say at what point they have taken over?
They will rule for about an hour, which by day=year language could be a little over 15 days. Could it be the last 15 days? Perhaps not, but Jesus IS to come as a thief.
Maybe a couple of other prophecies that I missed offhand, but you get the drift.

It would be entertaining for Him to arrive this moment, with the western protestant portion of the church's preoccupation with some future boogeyman of the Left Behind series, and some "man of sin" on their distant horizon.

Sadly, the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture offers the promise of judgment deferred and thereby encourages delaying repentence, by offering the allure of a second chance during Darby's "7-year" tribulation. How tragic will it be for those that come to find out that there are no second chances. That the last trump is the last trump and that they have indeed been "left behind"...... forever.

While they like to say they believe in Jesus imminent return, the pre-tribbers are stuck saying He delays His return by at least 7 years, by virtue of the fact that they are still here. Unless of course one thinks the bible includes 2 Second Comings.
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Well we see later in Revelation that there are some horns, or kings, that will rule with the beast. But it would seem they may not be seated as kings, so who is to say at what point they have taken over?
They will rule for about an hour, which by day=year language could be a little over 15 days. Could it be the last 15 days? Perhaps not, but Jesus IS to come as a thief.
Maybe a couple of other prophecies that I missed offhand, but you get the drift.

It would be entertaining for Him to arrive this moment, with the western protestant portion of the church's preoccupation with some future boogeyman of the Left Behind series, and some "man of sin" on their distant horizon.

Sadly, the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture offers the promise of judgment deferred and thereby encourages delaying repentence, by offering the allure of a second chance during Darby's "7-year" tribulation. How tragic will it be for those that come to find out that there are no second chances. That the last trump is the last trump and that they have indeed been "left behind"...... forever.

While they like to say they believe in Jesus imminent return, the pre-tribbers are stuck saying He delays His return by at least 7 years, by virtue of the fact that they are still here. Unless of course one thinks the bible includes 2 Second Comings.
Well, I know that "pre-tribbers" believe in a glorious appearing and then, later, his physical return. But it's all "the return of Jesus" to be tangibly involved in the affairs of mankind on earth.

Also, there are promises made to those who believe. Isaiah 26 says that there will be a resurrection and God's people will go into their rooms while God's wrath passes by. There are a few places that say we are not appointed to wrath. John 14 has Jesus' promise of coming back and taking us to be with him in rooms prepared for us.
These are promises from the Living God of all things. They are true because He cannot lie.

There is another opinion on the "one hour" thing. If you read Enoch, there is a description of Babylonian rule for 12 hours which in "earth time" was 75 years. So, one hour actually equals 6.25 years. (Might have to check me...If I'm remembering everything correctly.)

EdIT: 2 Thess 2 actually describes "a man" that is revealed and doomed to destruction. So, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that there is an actual guy at the helm in the last days.
 
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MattHenry

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As saved Christians we are not appointed to wrath. That doesn't likely mean we are not appointed to harm when we look at the plight of those before us and those unto today in the Sudan, Indonesia, Ethiopia and all around the world.

Could it be that we John Darby styled Western, protestant, evangelicals are simply too pious to derserve the fate of the apostles and those that came after them over the ensuing 1900+ years?? http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If you clicked on the links in the above verse you might get an idea that great tribulation is not necessarily reserved for some future someday. Particularly when we view videos like this one from Walid Shoebat's site regarding radical Islam in the United States (double click on the image for full screen). Video from The Investigarive Project of Terrorism.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]For updates on the latest terrorist attacks around the world a good site is The Religion of Peace.com. There have been more than 9,000 deadlly Islamic terrorist attacks just since 9-11.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the Olivet Discourse we found that Luke provided the date pins for the beginning and end of the period of great tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". We found that this period closed, as we then entered Daniel's "time of the end". This obviously does not mean that tribulation is over, as evidenced by the 2 million martyred saints, at the hands of Islam, in the Sudan alone. What it does mean is that we have moved from one era into the next - the last.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Do we have to wonder if the poor Sudanese souls have any doubts about when the tribulation is? First photo from Journey With Jesus.net[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Second photo from here. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here is a photo of a Sudanese child trying to make his way to food, while a vulture haunts him from behind, taken by the late Kevin Carter. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Our dear brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus are being martyred around the world, including through crucifixion and beheading. To get a better understanding of a major portion of the period of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, read Fox's Book of the Martyrs or Martyr's Mirror for free, online. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Today in "civilized" Saudi Arabia if a national lets it be known that they converted to Christianity they are beheaded. Death is the punishment for apostasy required by the Quran for turning away from Islam. In world news we all saw the same resolve displayed by the Afghanis. The Afghani government had to pretend the Christian was mentally retarded to avoid the required beheading, and subsequent exposure of their evil before the global community. AChristian evangelist disappeared into the Palestinian territory for a couple of weeks and was butchered and cut into 4 parts and sent back home to his family in a box.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents." Next Sudan/Angola border where: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The crime committed by the above martyrs could have been as simple as admitting to a being Christian when asked. You can study this subject with a Yahoo search. Don't expect to see Christian persecution reported on ABC, CBS, NBC or CNN. Visit Voice of the Martyrs to learn more and to find out how you can help.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The above are examples of those who have truly been "left behind". Christians are slaughtered at a rate of perhaps 160 thousand per year (conservative estimate). Christian martyrdom today and throughout the entirety of the Christian Era is global in scope. Instead of opening our Bible and praising Christ with our families on Sunday afternoon are we sometimes more preoccupied with helping our kids pick out which football star is most worthy of praise? Can it be reasonably argued that we are not in the "falling away".[/FONT]
 
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oneofGod

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I think one doesn't need to look far to find anti-christ.
John
6:65
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

There has been many that heard the gospel of Jesus, and turned away from him.



Fondling little boys in church, is the anti-christ.
Distorting the word to make money, is the anti-christ.
The anti-christ is all around us, dressed in white robes.



"It's truly like an ATM for Jesus," Baker said.
Source



They damn the homosexuals, and then do it themselves.
They damn the love of money, only to love money themselves.
They damn others for their beliefs, only to damn themselves.



God hates hypocrites.
 
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MattHenry

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EdIT: 2 Thess 2 actually describes "a man" that is revealed and doomed to destruction. So, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility to think that there is an actual guy at the helm in the last days.
We can learn a little more about the "man of sin" in context:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God" (link)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Can we get to know that "man of sin", the "son of perdition", better by finding out more about where he "sitteth" - that is - the temple of God? Let's try the KJV search tool from the Blue Letter Bible to see what we can find out.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Using the scriptural adjacency rule of hermeneutics for "temple" and "temple of God" reveals the following: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 Corinthians 3:17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]These verses regarding the location of the temple of God are not open to interpretation. They are multiple and very specific, so we are stuck with them. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]So we learn that the bodies of regenerate believers are the temples of God. Scripture offers no other option than our bodies for the location of the temple of God. Nowhere does the Lord redefine the term.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Perhaps this passage requires a little more introspection than it does running over the hill with a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other trying to rout out some future "the" "Antichrist".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Even more importantly it requires looking into our churches, particularly for the Pentacostals that believe that talking in tongues is the only measure of salvation. [/FONT]
 
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HisdaughterJen

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As saved Christians we are not appointed to wrath. That doesn't likely mean we are not appointed to harm when we look at the plight of those before us and those unto today in the Sudan, Indonesia, Ethiopia and all around the world.

Could it be that we John Darby styled Western, protestant, evangelicals are simply too pious to derserve the fate of the apostles and those that came after them over the ensuing 1900+ years?? http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Revelation 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If you clicked on the links in the above verse you might get an idea that great tribulation is not necessarily reserved for some future someday. Particularly when we view videos like this one from Walid Shoebat's site regarding radical Islam in the United States (double click on the image for full screen). Video from The Investigarive Project of Terrorism.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]For updates on the latest terrorist attacks around the world a good site is The Religion of Peace.com. There have been more than 9,000 deadlly Islamic terrorist attacks just since 9-11.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In the Olivet Discourse we found that Luke provided the date pins for the beginning and end of the period of great tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be". We found that this period closed, as we then entered Daniel's "time of the end". This obviously does not mean that tribulation is over, as evidenced by the 2 million martyred saints, at the hands of Islam, in the Sudan alone. What it does mean is that we have moved from one era into the next - the last.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Do we have to wonder if the poor Sudanese souls have any doubts about when the tribulation is? First photo from Journey With Jesus.net[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Second photo from here. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here is a photo of a Sudanese child trying to make his way to food, while a vulture haunts him from behind, taken by the late Kevin Carter. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Our dear brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus are being martyred around the world, including through crucifixion and beheading. To get a better understanding of a major portion of the period of "great tribulation" that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, read Fox's Book of the Martyrs or Martyr's Mirror for free, online. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Today in "civilized" Saudi Arabia if a national lets it be known that they converted to Christianity they are beheaded. Death is the punishment for apostasy required by the Quran for turning away from Islam. In world news we all saw the same resolve displayed by the Afghanis. The Afghani government had to pretend the Christian was mentally retarded to avoid the required beheading, and subsequent exposure of their evil before the global community. AChristian evangelist disappeared into the Palestinian territory for a couple of weeks and was butchered and cut into 4 parts and sent back home to his family in a box.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents." Next Sudan/Angola border where: [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The crime committed by the above martyrs could have been as simple as admitting to a being Christian when asked. You can study this subject with a Yahoo search. Don't expect to see Christian persecution reported on ABC, CBS, NBC or CNN. Visit Voice of the Martyrs to learn more and to find out how you can help.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The above are examples of those who have truly been "left behind". Christians are slaughtered at a rate of perhaps 160 thousand per year (conservative estimate). Christian martyrdom today and throughout the entirety of the Christian Era is global in scope. Instead of opening our Bible and praising Christ with our families on Sunday afternoon are we sometimes more preoccupied with helping our kids pick out which football star is most worthy of praise? Can it be reasonably argued that we are not in the "falling away".[/FONT]
This notion that since we are "pampered" in the Western Nations, we have a "come-up-ance"/"you'll get yours" coming. And there's this weird "you don't really love Jesus until you prove you can starve for Him" ideology.

Horse hockey.

God makes promises to those who are His. There are blessings and curses. Should trouble or persecution or even death come our way, God is still in control. There are many forms of persecution and many times in our lives when we must choose whom we serve.

Just because there are people in this world who face physical troubles...what about those who face spiritual troubles...choosing between lust and Jesus or idolatry and Jesus...all of it can kill you but the difference is can it kill you now, but save later or not necessarily kill now, but kill you for eternity. I'd say the more dangerous proposition is the 2nd death...spiritual tribulation for Christ.
 
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MattHenry

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Just because there are people in this world who face physical troubles...what about those who face spiritual troubles...choosing between lust and Jesus or idolatry and Jesus...
The quoted post involves more than "notions". They are reality. And I say Western church because I don't believe too many outside of the Western protestand evangelical church that hold John Darby's "pre" tribulation rapture doctrine.
But why not focus on the verses?
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37442886&postcount=15

And I don't engage in "rapture" debates as it is clear why the enemy put this doctrine in the 20th century church. As will likely be demonstrated if this thread goes the way of most "pre" trib threads.

Perhaps these choices are the equivalent of having your hair grabbed by someone's hand, and a beheading knife held in his other, telling you to deny Christ or your head will be cut off.

Certainly there are plenty worse fates than beheading.
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend Fox's Book of the Martyrs for all Christians. It's free:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Fox's Book of the Martyrs or Martyr's Mirror for free, online. [/FONT]
 
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HisdaughterJen

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The quoted post involves more than "notions". They are reality. And I say Western church because I don't believe too many outside of the Western protestand evangelical church that hold John Darby's "pre" tribulation rapture doctrine.
But why not focus on the verses?
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=37442886&postcount=15
I certainly do not discount the reality of physical tribulations that other brothers and sisters endure. What I find disheartening is your inability to see that tribulations and persecutions of Christians involve more than the physical. Even Jesus said: Mat 10:28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Well, I'm sorry but I don't know John Darby.
What do you have against Western protestant evangelical churches? There seems to be a prejudice in your perspective.
Yes, let's focus on the promises in scripture:
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

and this:

Jhn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.


and this:

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

and this:

1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

and this:

1Th 1:10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

And so many more...

The point is that you cannot discount scriptures and say that those that support your point of view are more true than others. ALL scripture must be true. There is an end times scenario which makes ALL scripture true. There is one truth. To cast aside a viewpoint as "of the devil" or "doctrine of demons" without considering the scriptural evidence and engaging with that WORD from God, is just plain wrong and lacks insight/wisdom.


And I don't engage in "rapture" debates as it is clear why the enemy put this doctrine in the 20th century church. As will likely be demonstrated if this thread goes the way of most "pre" trib threads.

You speak as a brother in Christ... or as one who sits in judgment unable to give a concrete answer based on God's Word?

Perhaps these choices are the equivalent of having your hair grabbed by someone's hand, and a beheading knife held in his other, telling you to deny Christ or your head will be cut off.

Certainly there are plenty worse fates than beheading.
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend Fox's Book of the Martyrs for all Christians. It's free:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Fox's Book of the Martyrs or Martyr's Mirror for free, online. [/FONT]

Certainly...a far worse fate is seeing the Living God cast you into the Lake of Fire! Idolatry will get you there. Sexual Immorality will get you there. Denying Jesus will get you there. You are stirring up fear of the antichrist instead of trust in the promises of God.
 
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I certainly do not discount the reality of physical tribulations that other brothers and sisters endure. What I find disheartening is your inability to see that tribulations and persecutions of Christians involve more than the physical. Even Jesus said: Mat 10:28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Well, I'm sorry but I don't know John Darby.
John Darby is considered to be the "Father of Dispensationalism", and he is the guy that penned the mid-19th century doctrine that you hold, if you believe in a 7-year tribulation and a pre-tribulation rapture.

What do you have against Western protestant evangelical churches? There seems to be a prejudice in your perspective.
Nothing against them. I am one. However I was led to overcome the unsupportable eschatology that they hold. And eschatological doctrine transcends just end-times and also effects how we view other things. Dispensationalists always, and futurists usually hold replacement theology.
Yes, let's focus on the promises in scripture:
Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

and this:

Jhn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.


and this:

Isa 26:19 But your dead will live;
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.

Isa 26:20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
Isa 26:21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.

and this:
I am all in.
1Th 5:9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
We don't suffer His wrath because we are saved Christians. This doesn't say anything about being raptured away from discomfort.
and this:

1Th 1:10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead-Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
Again, I'm glad I have a life in Christ. I have been doing what I can to help lead Muslims to Christ too.
And so many more...

The point is that you cannot discount scriptures and say that those that support your point of view are more true than others.
All those scriptures you listed support my point of view.
ALL scripture must be true.
Amen.
There is an end times scenario which makes ALL scripture true.
This is very likely true. But you won't find it in a church that is out defending doctrine in lieu of seeking out the truth.
There is one truth. To cast aside a viewpoint as "of the devil" or "doctrine of demons" without considering the scriptural evidence and engaging with that WORD from God,
I held that doctrine. I believed judgment was to be deferred for at least 7 years, and it kept me from repentence for years.

I have no doubts that ALL false doctrine is the work of the enemy.
Who else? The tooth fairy?
is just plain wrong and lacks insight/wisdom.
I can reconcile my view against the verses you listed even at their face value. Can you support your pre-trib rapture against these?

John 17:15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

I will be humbly honored to remain my brother John's fellow partaker in THE trubulation and in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](NASB): Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in thetribulation and kingdom and perseverance {which are} in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 1:9 | egw <1473> {I} iwannhV <2491> {JOHN,} o <3588> {WHO} kai <2532> {ALSO} adelfoV <80> {BROTHER} umwn <5216> {YOUR} kai <2532> {AND} sugkoinwnoV <4791> {FELLOW PARTAKER} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} qliyei <2347> {TRIBULATION} kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} basileia <932> {KINGDOM} kai <2532> {AND} upomonh <5281> {ENDURANCE} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS} cristou <5547> {CHRIST,}....[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 Chronicles 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; Weshall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]At the last trump. Not a few trumps before the last but at the last trump, and if there is any THEYgroup I am pretty confident I would not want to be in it.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then wewhich are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"Note the WE [again]. Paul was speaking to the Church of which he was part and we have every scriptural reason to believe that we also includes us. You and I and the rest of the church are the WE.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew 24:29Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew 24:30 they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet [a great trumpet, NASB], and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](1) Great tribulation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](2) After the tribulation.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](3) Son of man coming[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](3) Great trumpet[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](5) Gather together elect[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Clearly the book of Matthew would have to be rewritten to support more than one gathering of the elect.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Additionally, are 7-year future tribulation doctrine holders expected to believe that in the future yet a different billion and a half people will also be united in antichrist by religion, and that there will be yet another - future - "man" AND "beast" AND "false prophet" that will also identify themselves with the number 666, that will build yet another abomination on the temple mount, in some future 7-year period of tribulation? With two million saints killed in the Sudan alone are we to continue to look somewhere over the horizon for a "future" shedding of the blood of the saints and martyrs as hundreds more fall to the knife, around the world, every day? [/FONT]

 
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MattHenry

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I wonder how it is that the church somehow failed to see the "pre" tribulation "rapture" doctrine for the 1800 years prior to John Darby?

The Bible instructs:
Job 8:8 For enquire, I pray thee, of the former age, and prepare thyself to the search of their fathers: 9 (For we [are but of] yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth [are] a shadow:)

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But when we look to the fathers of the former age we find only an absence of historical support for a pre-tribulation rapture. Even "Dr. Harry Ironside of Moody Bible Institute, himself an ardent supporter of the Ribera-Lacunza-Macdonald-Darby-Scofield eschatological scheme, admitted in his Mysteries of God, p.50: ". . . until brought to the fore through the writings of . . . Mr. J. N. Darby, the doctrine taught by Dr. Scofield [i.e., the Seven-Year Tribulation theory] is scarcely to be found in a single book throughout a period of 1600 years. If any doubt this statement, let them search, as the writer has in measure done, the remarks of the so-called Fathers, both pre- and post-Nicene, the theological treatises of the scholastic divines . . . the literature of the reformation . . . the Puritans. He will find the 'mystery' conspicuous by its absence."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]It is so sad to see the lengths that some go through to claim that there is. Even a visit to raptureready.com, who censor alternate points of view, demonstrates the same bankruptcy in regard to historical precedent for this doctrine.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Thomas Ice, for example, points to a paper written in the 8th century by someone using a fake name - Pseudo Ephraem - as proof that the pre-trib rapture doctrine was taught in the church before John Darby penned his doctrine. Even the title of Ice's paper suggests his volume of historical proof: "Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement". This is some entertaining reading, but so sad to see the lengths someone will go through to advance false doctrine.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Here is an expose by Tim Warner on the Grant Jeffrey article "Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement", to which Thomas Ice refers. Also Grant Jeffrey's 'Apocalypse' Debacle by Tim Warner.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Even in this thin case that Ice highlights, the argument that Pseudo Ephraem's paper is post-trib, is stronger. And even if the paper was about a pre-trib rapture, would this be enough historical precedent on which to base a doctrine that is so clearly unsupportable by scripture, except through an inverted pyramid of pile-on presumption? Seems appropriate to call it thin Ice. Here is the website of the Pre-Trib Research Center. Considering the importance of looking to the fathers of the former age, you would think they would include a special section regarding historical support for their doctrine if there was any.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But in either event regarding this single paper, it is unreasonable to suggest that this would have been the source of John Darby's pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. The historical record shows that Darby, also called the "father of dispensationalism" was influenced by the Irvingites after attending several meetings, and that the Irvingites were influenced by a dream of a little Scotish girl named Margaret MacDonald, who dreamed up this pre-tribulation rapture. There is even an argument however that even Margaret Macdonald's dream was post-trib! And John Darby's eschatological doctrine is what found it's way into the 20th century western protestant church. This cannot be reasonably refuted.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[/FONT]
 
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HisdaughterJen

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John Darby is considered to be the "Father of Dispensationalism", and he is the guy that penned the mid-19th century doctrine that you hold, if you believe in a 7-year tribulation and a pre-tribulation rapture.


Hmmm...yeah, never heard of him. I'm actually leaning toward 2000 year trib and final years (about 6-7 years)which include 3 1/2 year reign of beast, wrath of God.

Nothing against them. I am one. However I was led to overcome the unsupportable eschatology that they hold. And eschatological doctrine transcends just end-times and also effects how we view other things.

Well, there's no problem with questioning everything and comparing to scripture.


Dispensationalists always, and futurists usually hold replacement theology.


I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel at all. I think that Jesus called out a people to Himself.

Act 15:14Simon* has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.



I am all in. We don't suffer His wrath because we are saved Christians. This doesn't say anything about being raptured away from discomfort.

We all suffer tribulations and many discomforts in this life. We are not going to be around to see the wrath of God poured out on the earth.


Again, I'm glad I have a life in Christ. I have been doing what I can to help lead Muslims to Christ too. All those scriptures you listed support my point of view.Amen. Sorry. Not so. I held that doctrine. I believed judgment is to be deferred and it kept me from repentence for years.
I have no doubts that ALL false doctrine is the work of the enemy.
Who else? The tooth fairy?

Be careful what you call false doctrine. The catching away has Biblical evidence for such.

I can reconcile my view against the verses you listed even at their face value. Can you support your pre-trib rapture against these?

Indeed!

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn017.html#15


Jesus was talking about his disciples who were remaining there while he was going...read it in context.

I will be humbly honored to remain my brother John's fellow partaker in THE trubulation and in THE kingdom of Jesus Christ:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif](NASB): Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in thetribulation and kingdom and perseverance {which are} in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Further evidence that the tribulation is more than just 7 years long...
We all go through tribulation every day because of the fallen world we live in.

Mar 10:29 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel
Mar 10:30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields–and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#52
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#52
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#52

You need to consider exactly what the "last trump" could possibly be. Read Numbers 10:1-10 and Joel 2:15-16. There are two trumps of God blown together to gather the people to Him.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat024.html#21
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat024.html#21
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat024.html#21


If the tribulation is 2000 years long, then the wrath is immediately after it. Again, consider what trumpet is meant.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Additionally, are 7-year future tribulation doctrine holders expected to believe that in the future yet a different billion and a half people will also be united in antichrist by religion, and that there will be yet another - future - "man" AND "beast" AND "false prophet" that will also identify themselves with the number 666, that will build yet another abomination on the temple mount, in some future 7-year period of tribulation? [/FONT]
[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Well, a conglomeration of Revived Roman Empire/Islam would certainly be interesting...[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]With two million saints killed in the Sudan alone are we to continue to look somewhere over the horizon for a "future" shedding of the blood of the saints and martyrs as hundreds more fall to the knife, around the world, every day? [/FONT]
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No, I think there are and have been martyrs for Christ for 2000 years.

 
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HisdaughterJen

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I wonder how it is that the church somehow failed to see the "pre" tribulation "rapture" doctrine for the 1800 years prior to John Darby?

Well, let's look at it:

Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”


and this:

Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.



Mat 7:7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Luk 11:9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

So, the Bible was locked up in Latin and dispensed to the masses to the glory of "the church" instead of to God until the printing press about 500 years ago.

Then, people started to be educated and were able to read the Bible for themselves.

Have you ever factored in literacy rates in determining when the doctrine supposedly came about?

We have the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. If, during the Dark Ages, the Word of God was undermined by self-seeking men, then how could the Holy Spirit counsel men who've never really heard?

So, doctrines that seemingly have come about in the last 200 years or so may only be the result of people not having the Bible in their own hands and literacy rates.
 
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MattHenry

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Hmmm...yeah, never heard of him.
He's the guy who invented the doctrine and fed it to Scofield. Have you heard of Scofield, as in the Scofield bible?
I'm actually leaning toward 2000 year trib and final years (about 6-7 years)
That's Darby/de Lacunza/Ribera.
which include 3 1/2 year reign of beast,
That's Darby/de Lacunza/Ribera.
wrath of God.
The wrath of God will come at the end.
Well, there's no problem with questioning everything and comparing to scripture.




I don't believe that the Church has replaced Israel at all. I think that Jesus called out a people to Himself.
Then that makes you more of a futurist than a dispensationalist. Still Darby's private interpretation of scripture.
Act 15:14Simon* has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself.





We all suffer tribulations and many discomforts in this life. We are not going to be around to see the wrath of God poured out on the earth.




Be careful what you call false doctrine. The catching away has Biblical evidence for such.
Don't be so general. If you mean the "gathering of the elect" from Matthew 24 for example, I agree. If you think it comes before Darby's 7-year tribulation, then you are going to have to do better in showing me the supporting scriptures. So far the ones you have presented are perfectly in line with a linear or continuous historic understanding of prophecy.
Indeed!



Jesus was talking about his disciples who were remaining there while he was going...read it in context.



Further evidence that the tribulation is more than just 7 years long...
We all go through tribulation every day because of the fallen world we live in.
The evidence is that there is just one tribulation. THE tribulation in which we are our bother John's companion.
Mar 10:29 &#8220;I tell you the truth,&#8221; Jesus replied, &#8220;no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel
Mar 10:30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields&#8211;and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.





[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]You need to consider exactly what the "last trump" could possibly be. Read Numbers 10:1-10 and Joel 2:15-16. There are two trumps of God blown together to gather the people to Him.[/FONT]





[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]If the tribulation is 2000 years long, then the wrath is immediately after it. Again, consider what trumpet is meant.[/FONT]
Right. Not THAT last trump. The other LAST TRUMP!
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Well, a conglomeration of Revived Roman Empire/Islam would certainly be interesting...[/FONT]



No, I think there are and have been martyrs for Christ for 2000 years.
Why don't you find where this "pre" tribulation doctrine was in the church before John Darby penned his private interpretation. Doesn't that suggest anything?
Ask your pastor where this was to be found in the church prior to John Darby.
 
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MattHenry

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Well, let's look at it:

Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.&#8221;
.
Then I guess the question begs, do you believe that the mid 1800s were within the time of the end?
And if so what causes you to draw that conclusion?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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He's the guy who invented the doctrine and fed it to Scofield. Have you heard of Scofield, as in the Scofield bible? That's Darby/de Lacunza/Ribera. That's Darby/de Lacunza/Ribera. The wrath of God will come at the end. Then that makes you more of a futurist than a dispensationalist. Still Darby's private interpretation of scripture. Don't be so general. If you mean the "gathering of the elect" from Matthew 24 for example, I agree. If you think it comes before Darby's 7-year tribulation, then you are going to have to do better in showing me the supporting scriptures. So far the ones you have presented are perfectly in line with a linear or continuous historic understanding of prophecy. The evidence is that there is just one tribulation. THE tribulation in which we are our bother John's companion. Right. Not THAT last trump. The other LAST TRUMP!
Why don't you find where this "pre" tribulation doctrine was in the church before John Darby penned his private interpretation. Doesn't that suggest anything?
Ask your pastor where this was to be found in the church prior to John Darby.

I frankly don't care about John Darby's conclusions or anyone else for that matter. I only care what the scripture says.
I don't claim to be a follower of anyone but Christ. (no, haven't heard of "Scofield Bible" I regularly use the NIV, KJ as well as Hebrew and Greek interlinear for reference and study)

It seems that "private" interpretation of scripture under the leading of the Holy Spirit is encouraged:

1Jo 2:27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit-just as it has taught you, remain in him.

There is nothing wrong with checking everything by scripture:
Act 17:11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


Regarding the trumpets...do you think that Paul knew about John's vision which included 7 trumpets when he wrote 1 Cor. 15 about the last trump? What about Joel when he said there'd be a trumpet gathering before the day of the Lord? What trumpet do you think Paul was referring to?
 
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MattHenry

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I frankly don't care about John Darby's conclusions or anyone else for that matter.
But it was John Darby that invented the doctrine that the church holds today that includes the "pre" tribulation rapture. He invented it in the mid-1800s, via ribera/de Lacunza/margaret macdonald.
Here is an explanation as to how it came to be:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm

If the 1800s weren't in the time of the end, then isn't it likely that Darby's "pre" trib rapture was in error?

Let alone the fact that it hadn't been in the church before him (except perhaps by Ribera
s "Coming of Messiah in Majesty and Glory")?

Let alone that it can't be reconciled with the scriptures I showed you like Matthew 24. We would have to rewrite Matthew.

I used to believe it to. I used to believe lots of things that I came to find out weren't true, even though they are widely taught and believed by many.

Don't you think the evidence against this pop-doctrine is pretty compelling? You haven't presented anything in it's defense that I can recall.

I am well aware that only the lord can lead you to overcome. And it is a very difficult thing to do, although you express somewhat open eyes and a fairly Berean spirit. These things take time and study to leave behind. Perhaps you won't be led to, but if you do I believe it will be a relief to know that you are subject to tribulation the same way as all of your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus before you and unto today. nite nite
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Then I guess the question begs, do you believe that the mid 1800s were within the time of the end?
And if so what causes you to draw that conclusion?
Well, yes!

We've been in the last days since Christ left!

However, "time of the end"...yes, I'd say that the mid 1800's are included in the time of the end. We would not understand what the angel was talking about in Daniel until such a time as we are meant to understand it. If people understood it in the mid-1800's, then yes, they are included in the 'time of the end'.
 
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