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antichrist

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HisdaughterJen

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But it was John Darby that invented the doctrine that the church holds today that includes the "pre" tribulation rapture. He invented it in the mid-1800s, via ribera/de Lacunza/margaret macdonald.
Here is an explanation as to how it came to be:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/end_time_myth.htm

If the 1800s weren't in the time of the end, then isn't it likely that Darby's "pre" trib rapture was in error?

Why would you say..."he invented it"?

Do you mean that he created a doctrine out of thin air? Or did he have a theory based on scripture?

Even I am open to discussion on all topics regarding the Bible because it has so much depth and breadth that you'll miss something if you're not open to it.


Let alone the fact that it hadn't been in the church before him (except perhaps by Ribera
s "Coming of Messiah in Majesty and Glory")?

So? As I already quoted from Daniel...there are some things that only the wise will understand at the time of the end.


Let alone that it can't be reconciled with the scriptures I showed you like Matthew 24. We would have to rewrite Matthew.

Why? Israel appears to have a different promise than the church.

I used to believe it to. I used to believe lots of things that I came to find out weren't true, even though they are widely taught and believed by many.

Don't you think the evidence against this pop-doctrine is pretty compelling?

Exactly what is the "pop-doctrine"? I have no idea what it supposedly is.

You haven't presented anything in it's defense that I can recall.

Because I don't know what this man taught or believed....

I am well aware that only the lord can lead you to overcome. And it is a very difficult thing to do, although you express somewhat open eyes and a fairly Berean spirit. These things take time and study to leave behind. Perhaps you won't be led to, but if you do I believe it will be a relief to know that you are subject to tribulation the same way as all of your brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus before you and unto today. nite nite

I appreciate the insight you've brought forward in regards to Islam. I would like to mull over your ideas and pray about them before I "jump in" and agree. God's Word will not lead us astray. I'd like it if you referenced your ideas about the two witnesses for me so that I can look into it.

I don't think you understand what I've been saying to you in regards to tribulation...ALL Christians living and dead...have experienced tribulation. We were warned it would happen and it has. I do not understand the ideology that says we have to prove our love for Jesus by starving or dying in the final years. IF it comes to that, so be it. All those who have died believing in Him before us receive the same reward as us whether they were beheaded or died comfortably in their sleep. We all endure the tribulation of this horrible world. Whether by death or by "catching away", we will be with the Lord!!!
 
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MattHenry

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Well, yes!

We've been in the last days since Christ left!

However, "time of the end"...yes, I'd say that the mid 1800's are included in the time of the end. We would not understand what the angel was talking about in Daniel until such a time as we are meant to understand it. If people understood it in the mid-1800's, then yes, they are included in the 'time of the end'.
So you believe that the "time of the end" should be measured by when the private interpretation of John Darby that you choose to hold, was penned?

What if God had a way for us to positively identify when we reached the time of the end, with two parallel problems that each span 2500 years, and yet pin the years of 1948 and 1967?

Problems that were impossible to prove until AFTER we entered the "time of the end" that are explored on the following forum link:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5864395-daniels-time-of-the-end-and-the-mathematical-precision-of-prophecy.html
 
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HisdaughterJen

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So you believe that the "time of the end" should be measured by when the private interpretation of John Darby that you choose to hold, was penned?

What if God had a way for us to positively identify when we reached the time of the end, with two parallel problems that each span 2500 years, and yet pin the years of 1948 and 1967?

Problems that were impossible to prove until AFTER we entered the "time of the end" that are explored on the following forum link:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5864395-daniels-time-of-the-end-and-the-mathematical-precision-of-prophecy.html
I don't know...maybe we should define "time of the end".

There are scriptures that say "last days" which could refer to the last 3 days on God's schedule or literal days from our perspective. We have been drawing nearer to the end (or the beginning of the next phase) with each passing day. From God's perspective, the difference between 1850 and 1950 is only 100 years or 1/10 of a day/about 2.4 hours if we were to really think about it.

Personally, I believe that 1948 and 1967 are significant and fulfillment of prophecy. Other end times prophecies could not come to pass had the events not occurred.
 
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MattHenry

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I don't know...maybe we should define "time of the end".

There are scriptures that say "last days" which could refer to the last 3 days on God's schedule or literal days from our perspective. We have been drawing nearer to the end (or the beginning of the next phase) with each passing day. From God's perspective, the difference between 1850 and 1950 is only 100 years or 1/10 of a day/about 2.4 hours if we were to really think about it.

Personally, I believe that 1948 and 1967 are significant and fulfillment of prophecy. Other end times prophecies could not come to pass had the events not occurred.
I agree, and God confirms your view in terms that an atheist could understand (more easily than an indoctrinated Christian):

If you are going to reply to any of the rest of this post please do so on it's own thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t586...d-the-mathematical-precision-of-prophecy.html

The book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end":
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God followed this up with a crystal clear statement of fact:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

(link) In one of Daniel's dreams we read:

1. Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus, king of Persia, a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar, and the word was true, and for a long time, and he understood the word and he understood it in the vision.
You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Toward the end of this same prophecy we read (from the Tanach):
Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.
Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms? :)

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years- 533 = 1967

The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. End of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one trick pony?

(link) In another of Daniel's dreams we find:

2.Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.
You can Yahoo confirmation for the first year of Belshazzar to be 552 BC

Later in this dream we read:
Daniel 7:25 And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.

2500 - 552 = 1948

The restoration of the Jews to the holy land, declaring an independent Israel. End of the Jews being "led away captive", and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.

For this to be a pair of accidents that each span 2500 years would be a stastical absurdity. Blessedly there are many more problems that reinforce them. For open eyes these problems aptly demonstrate that it wasn't until after the dates of 1948 and 1967 had come to pass, and we entered this - Daniel's - "time of the end", that we could understand the solutions to these simple problems both mathematically and textually. What a perfect seal God had Daniel put on this book!
These "times" problems are covered in more depth at this link.

More math problems here:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathem...tion_1260_days

Is it really that hard to see?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I agree, and God confirms your view in terms that an atheist could understand (more easily than an indoctrinated Christian):

If you are going to reply to any of the rest of this post please do so on it's own thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t586...d-the-mathematical-precision-of-prophecy.html

The book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end":
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
God followed this up with a crystal clear statement of fact:
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

(link) In one of Daniel's dreams we read:

1. Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus, king of Persia, a word was revealed to Daniel, who was named Belteshazzar, and the word was true, and for a long time, and he understood the word and he understood it in the vision.
You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus to be 536 BC which makes the third year of Cyrus 533 BC.

Toward the end of this same prophecy we read (from the Tanach):
Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.
Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms? :)

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years- 533 = 1967

The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. End of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one trick pony?

(link) In another of Daniel's dreams we find:

2.Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.
You can Yahoo confirmation for the first year of Belshazzar to be 552 BC

Later in this dream we read:
Daniel 7:25 And he will speak words against the Most High, and he will oppress the high holy ones, and he will think to change the times and the law, and they will be delivered into his hand until a time, two times, and half a time.

2500 - 552 = 1948

The restoration of the Jews to the holy land, declaring an independent Israel. End of the Jews being "led away captive", and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.

For this to be a pair of accidents that each span 2500 years would be a stastical absurdity. Blessedly there are many more problems that reinforce them. For open eyes these problems aptly demonstrate that it wasn't until after the dates of 1948 and 1967 had come to pass, and we entered this - Daniel's - "time of the end", that we could understand the solutions to these simple problems both mathematically and textually. What a perfect seal God had Daniel put on this book!
These "times" problems are covered in more depth at this link.

More math problems here:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathem...tion_1260_days

Is it really that hard to see?
Why people are hesitant is the changing of the Bible from "time, times and half a time" to "times and half a time." There's a Biblical warning against that. What people have to come to terms with is either their translation is wrong or yours is.

I think you have a fascinating study there but it's based on changing the currently accepted Biblical translations.
 
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Zadok7000

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2 and a half times? LOL!

The subject of Daniel 12 is plainly stated in verse 1; the "time of trouble such as never was" - same as our Lord described to us in Matt. 24:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The "midst" means "middle"; a "week" is 7. Half of a "week" is 3.5:

in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation

Notice the TIMING - the END - the CONSUMMATION. Therefore, this cannot be 2.5 "times":

a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Dan. 12:7 = Rev. 12:4
Michael "stands up"/kicks Satan out of heaven - he arrives on earth and "stands in the holy place", the "abomination", then comes the End when the True Christ Returns to take back what is His.
 
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MattHenry

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2 and a half times? LOL!

The subject of Daniel 12 is plainly stated in verse 1; the "time of trouble such as never was" - same as our Lord described to us in Matt. 24:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The "midst" means "middle"; a "week" is 7. Half of a "week" is 3.5:

in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation

Notice the TIMING - the END - the CONSUMMATION. Therefore, this cannot be 2.5 "times":

a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Dan. 12:7 = Rev. 12:4
Michael "stands up"/kicks Satan out of heaven - he arrives on earth and "stands in the holy place", the "abomination", then comes the End when the True Christ Returns to take back what is His.
I see. Satan resides in heaven.

Moving along, it is hard to tell just what you believe the abomination of desolation to be. Could you please explain it in a little more detail?
 
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Zadok7000

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I see. Satan resides in heaven.

That is correct. Daniel and Revelation both witness to this.

Moving along, it is hard to tell just what you believe the abomination of desolation to be. Could you please explain it in a little more detail?

The abomination of the Desolator is just how Paul describes it - Satan sits in the Temple of God to be worshipped as God - the Temple of God is the Church. Christianity is deceived en masse as is the rest of the world by him: the False Christ/Prophet; the man of sin, the son of perdition. This cannot happen until he is cast out of heaven by Michael.
 
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MattHenry

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[edit] Zadok 7000, I moved a copy of this to the Abomination of Desolation thread so we can pursue it there and not junk up this thread with it.
http://www.christianforums.com/t587...lation-the-dome-of-the-rock.html#post37593949

The abomination of the Desolator is just how Paul describes it - Satan sits in the Temple of God to be worshipped as God...
Then why would Matthew say that it stands?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains


stand - Check Strong's here

New Testament Greek Definition:
2476 histemi {his'-tay-mee}
a prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same
meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); TDNT - 7:638,1082; v
AV - stand 116, set 11, establish 5, stand still 4, stand by 3,
misc 17, vr stand 2; 158
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges,
before members of the Sanhedrin;
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape
in safety
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
1b31) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
1c) to set or place in a balance
1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before
the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
2a) to stand by or near
2a1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
2a1a) of the foundation of a building
2b) to stand
2b1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or
prepared
2b2) to be of a steadfast mind
2b3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver
 
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HisdaughterJen

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Then why would Matthew say that it stands?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains


stand - Check Strong's here

New Testament Greek Definition:
2476 histemi {his'-tay-mee}
a prolonged form of a primary stao {stah'-o} (of the same
meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); TDNT - 7:638,1082; v
AV - stand 116, set 11, establish 5, stand still 4, stand by 3,
misc 17, vr stand 2; 158
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges,
before members of the Sanhedrin;
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape
in safety
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
1b31) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
1c) to set or place in a balance
1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before
the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
2a) to stand by or near
2a1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
2a1a) of the foundation of a building
2b) to stand
2b1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or
prepared
2b2) to be of a steadfast mind
2b3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver
You know, a lot of things that are prophecied happen more than once.
Prime example:
Jesus coming & Jesus coming again.

There are a lot of scriptures about the Messiah...Israel didn't catch the meaning at the time Jesus came that there would be two "comings" of the Messiah.

Knowing this, don't you think it's possible that there could have been an abomination of desolation before but that it will happen again?
 
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Zadok7000

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Knowing this, don't you think it's possible that there could have been an abomination of desolation before but that it will happen again?

The Church has never been deceived by the Desolator before, so I would say no.
 
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Zadok7000

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Then why would Matthew say that it stands?

I did reply in the other thread specifically on the abomination angle, but the identity of the False Christ is integral to this whole question. No flesh man in history or in the future can be the son of perdition or commit the Abomination of the Desolator. The Temple/Sanctuary that is desacrated that Daniel, our Lord and Paul talk about is the Church. It can be nothing else.
 
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thecountrydoc

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Thoughts on the Biblical Term Antichrist



"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred three score and six." Rev. 13:18

Hello to all who have read or posted to this thread.

A practical place to start studying what/who is the Antichrist is to start by analyzing the original Greek text.

In I John 2:18, 2:22, 4:3, and II John 7 we find the term antichrist used, which has generally been understood to mean opposed to Christ, or against Christ, with the assumption that the Greek prefix anti means essentially what the English anti means. In English anti-war would rightfully be understood to mean against war, or opposed to war. However, the question must be asked, What is the primary meaning of the GREEK word anti, and how does this amplify our understanding of the biblical term antichrist?




Fortunately, there are numerous examples of the Greek term anti found in the Scripture, and an examination of them will prove helpful. There at least 16 occurences of the term anti found in the New Testament, with 15 of them being translated for in the King James Bible, while one time it is translated by the phrase in the room of. Let us look at the usage first of all, which is found in Matt.2:22.
"But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judea in the room ofhis father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into parts of Galilee".​
One of the many times anti is translated for is Matt.20:28, a passage which reads
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many."​
Another is the familiar Luke 2:2:
"If a son shall ask bread of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he asks for a fish will he give him a serpent?"​
One more example is Heb.12:16, speaking of Esau who traded his birthright:
"Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright."*​
It is clear from these usages of anti the primary meaning of the term is instead of, or in place of, consistent with the word for. If one attempts to read any of the foregoing text and in the place of for substitute against, or opposed,the logic is lost. The Son of man did give His life against many, but as a substitute for many, or in the place of many.




Without argument, many times one who takes the place of another does so as an antagonist, or in opposition to him, and so these words which employ the prefix anti which have the meaning of opponent as their primary meaning. An example of this would be the word antidikos[adversary] in texts such as I Peter 5:8:
"Be sober, vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."**​
But, because the bare term anti clearly utilizes the concept of substitution, it would be a mistake to examine the word antichrist without this in mind. Taking this approach, the antichrist is first of all one who seeks to take the place of Christ, to exercise authority instead of Christ. This is a concept with which the rest of the New Testament is entirely familiar, demonstrated by texts such as II Thess. 2:3,4:
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."​
The man of sin is described as usurping authority not rightfully belonging to him, attempting to masquerade as God, sitting in the seat of God. It is interesting to note that the word translated oppose in verse 4 is again a compound word, antikeima, meaning one who lies in the place of, or one who lies against. In Rev. 13, the beast power seeks to take the place of God by exhorting worship, something which rightfully belongs only to God, fulfilling the age-old designs of the arch-enemy, whose ambitious aspirations are recorded by the prophet Isaiah;
"Thou (Lucifer) hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the Most High."(Isaiah 14:13,14)​
It is interesting to see how this understanding impacts our interpretation. Without question, the papal power has attempted to take the place of Christ by title, by pronouncement, and by practice. The term vicar of Christ is instructive to compare the context. Vicar is of Latin origin, and meansone who takes the place of, or one who acts instead of. We use the adjective vicarious to describe Christ's substitutionary sacrifice. Thus, when the pope identifies himself as the vicar of Christ, to operate in His stead, as His substitute, take note of this strange irony, then. Since both anti and vicar mean the same thing, namely substitute or one who takes the place of, the one from Greek and the other from the Latin, when the pope accepts the title vicar of Christ, he is thereby also accepting the title of anti Christ. Unfortunatly, since most assume that the anti of antichrist means only against, or in opposition to, they are looking for a fulfillment of this prophetic symbol outside the church, while the Bible clearly identifies this power as coming from within. He sits
"in the temple of God (II Thess.2:4)."​
Paul warned the Ephesian elders;
"of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them (Acts 20:30)."​
John saw in vision Babylon typified as a woman(a church) which sat on a beast.

There is no question that the antichrist of the New Testament is an opponent of the true Christ, whose work is against that of Christ. But it would be a mistake of large proportions, when discussing the term antichrist to not include the concept of substitution, which the prefix anti clearly employs, which clarifies and amplifies the mission and identity of this important prophetic symbol.

*The other usages of anti in the New Testament are as follows:
Matt. 5:38 "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
Matt. 17:27 "take, and give unto them for me and thee"
Mark 10:45 "and to give His life a ransom for many"
John 1:16 "have all received, and grace for grace"
Rom. 12:17 "recompense to man evil for evil"
I Cor. 11:15 "for (her) hair is given her for a covering"
I Thess. 5:15 "See that none render evil for evil"
Heb. 12:2 "Who for the joy that was set before Him"
James 4:15" for that ye ought to say, If the Lord"
I Peter 3:9 "Not rendering evil for evil"

** Other compound words which employ anti as a prefix include antilambano(see Luke 1:54 and Acts 20:35) translated helped and antilempsis in I Cor. 12:28 translated helpful deeds, and antileptor in Psalm 18:2 translated deliver. While there are other compound words using anti as a prefix in which the notion of against predominates, it is difficult to discern that flavor in the foregoing compound words.


Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc
 
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