Anti-catholic; an emotion laden term meant to incite.

[Rhamiel]

Rhamiel 400plus years ago your church anathmetized the teachings that I believe, if you decided you believed in the same teachings as I where are you in the salvation picture? If you say outside of it as your church teaches...Then how are you and your teachings any different?

well that is a little off topic, you are talking about the term "anti-Catholic" being a meaningless word that is thrown around too much.
but I will answer your question anyways
I can only trust that Jesus would judge my heart, and pray to His Father that I would be forgiven because I knew not what I was doing.

Catholics say that Protestants are Christian, that baptism in (most) Protestant denominations is a valid baptism, we are not anti-Protestnt,
if a person does not think that a "born agian" christian can be a practicing Catholic, then that peron is anti-Catholic

 

[simonthezealot]

My goodness! I have been called much worse things than an anti-Catholic during my life. If that was the only label which was applied to me I might get a bit concerned, but I have no reason for it to bother me. In fact, I was once accused of being a Catholic priest in disguise. That, I found quite amusing.

Bro dont get me wrong they can call me what they want i personally could care less no harm to me! but I think the drum is banged for the purpose of firing up emotions through bigotry...

 

[sunlover1]

You're falsely representing me tad and you know it...
I NEVER said that was directed specifically at the catholic church...
So what your doing is defining how you think I meant one sentence, and in-turn labeling me when I did NO such thing to you.

Wow, well I've read the first three pages and so far you've been
accused of quite a bit. You say that you dont consider CC the WOB,
and i believe you. I dont consider it that either.
But since you're getting crap (by page three anyhow) from all sides
what is "arminian" exactly?


sunlover (thinks she may be one of those things)

 

[sunlover1]

Catholics say that Protestants are Christian, that baptism in (most) Protestant denominations is a valid baptism, we are not anti-Protestnt,

YOU rham, not 'we'.
I've also ducked arrows many times here, protestants dont have all
of the truth yet 'we' do, protestants communion is 'inferior' and i can
go on but just want you to be objective... it's really a two way thing.

if a person does not think that a "born agian" christian can be a practicing Catholic, then that peron is anti-Catholic

I think that you can be catholic and born again, catholic and unsaved,
protestant and born again, protestant and unsaved.

I'm anti protestant, and anti catholic i guess.
I'd convert to EO but they get ignored

 

[PETE_]

From the same website:

Calvinist/Reformed/Presbyteriansee Chapter 25, Article 6, Westminster Confession (1646) and Chapter 26, Article 4, Savoy Declaration (1658)

"There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof, but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God." Westminster Confession, Chap. 25, Art. 6 (emphasis mine) See this version with citations to 2 Thess. 2:3,4,8,9; Rev. 13:6
​

"There is no other Head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ, nor can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of Iperdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God, whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Savoy Declaration, Chap. 26, Art. 4 (emphasis mine)
​

You have to remember these statements in their historical context. They sprang from an age when expressing publically theological differences with the Pope to get you imprisoned or even killed. That does not mean that they were correct to do so, but it makes it easier to undestand why some felt that way at the time. It is also no reason to dismiss everything else they had to say.

 

[Rhamiel]

YOU rham, not 'we'.
I've also ducked arrows many times here, protestants dont have all
of the truth yet 'we' do, protestants communion is 'inferior' and i can
go on but just want you to be objective... it's really a two way thing.


I think that you can be catholic and born again, catholic and unsaved,
protestant and born again, protestant and unsaved.

I'm anti protestant, and anti catholic i guess.
I'd convert to EO but they get ignored

we do not agree with protestant doctrine, but Protestants do not agree with Catholic doctrine, that does not either side "anti" anything
I agree with you, there are wheat and tares in all groups
Now some Catholics are "anti-Protestant" and will say that Protestants are not Christian, but they are few and far between, and the Catholic Church says that they are wrong.
on the other hand there are whole congregations that say that Catholics can not be Christian.

Simon, for what it is worth, I agree that the term "anti-Catholic is thrown around too much, to be a Protestant, well that means you do not agree with Catholic doctrine, that does not make someone anti-Catholic

 

[Joachim]

I've been called an anti-catholic more times on here than I care to mention, what I find troublesome about this whole labeling is that it incites an emotion within people, it is true I deny that Rome teaches a saving gospel because of their view/teaching of justification and I am not afraid to drive that home, question is; does this in itself make me an anti-catholic? truth is I am defending MY faith... if thats the case then I may as well be called an;anti-nontrinitarian, anti-mormon, anti-osteen, anti-arminian, anti-JW, anti-exchanged life, anti-episcopalian,anti-emergent, anti-universalist, anti-well you get the idea...I debate with everyone of these other apologists and have never been called anti-anyofthem.
While I am more active debating against catholics than most of the others i've had no shortage of debating the others on here, it is just by pure numbers that the catholicism debate seems to surge to the top.

My whole point of this thread is why isnt the label anti-catholic considered a flame? You don't see us reformed apologists calling others anti-reformists.

Ok, I am from an area that had a sort of mixed response in Katrina. The inland areas had a little wind damage but they were fine. We were a bit too far east to get a major wind impact though our area did see gusts in the 100 mph range, which is not really a powerful gust. Our waterfront areas took a heavy beating. We had the worst storm surge impact in 90 years. Areas that were not even on flood maps for hurricanes because they simply had not flooded found themselves inundated with water. I take Katrina very personally because of the people I knew who were affected by the storm and because even today you can see the effects of it in the hardest hit areas.


It was during Katrina that a member of the state legislaure, made a comment that the storm was a "punishment from God."

Now one might just associate that as a meaningless comment but there is just one thing. This state legislator is from an area that is Bible Belt to the core, and the one thing that everyone who lives in the South knows is that the areas that were affected by Katrina are historically Catholic areas and that the perception is these are Catholic areas. When this state legislator made his comment about Katrina, there was simply no other way to take it than to believe that it was motivated out of anti-Catholicism.


When anti-Catholicism ceases to exist we'll stop worrying about whether people are anti-Catholic or not. We won't do so before then.

 

[PETE_]

we do not agree with protestant doctrine, but Protestants do not agree with Catholic doctrine, that does not either side "anti" anything
I agree with you, there are wheat and tares in all groups
Now some Catholics are "anti-Protestant" and will say that Protestants are not Christian, but they are few and far between, and the Catholic Church says that they are wrong.
on the other hand there are whole congregations that say that Catholics can not be Christian.

Simon, for what it is worth, I agree that the term "anti-Catholic is thrown around too much, to be a Protestant, well that means you do not agree with Catholic doctrine, that does not make someone anti-Catholic

You will find it tough to find a wholeprotestant congregation that agree on everything, including this issue. Just as alot of Catholics are uneducated about protestant beliefs, the opposite holds true.

 

[simonthezealot]

Wow, well I've read the first three pages and so far you've been
accused of quite a bit. You say that you dont consider CC the WOB,
and i believe you. I dont consider it that either.
But since you're getting crap (by page three anyhow) from all sides
what is "arminian" exactly?


sunlover (thinks she may be one of those things)

I've got thick skin kiddo, no harm no foul...

Arminian vs calvinist, no prob here you go...

Here is an article that does a good job of articulating it by Alan Kurschner ...
The "Calvinist vs. Arminian" debate throughout church history is substantially a debate between what is called "synergism" and "monergism." It is impossible for there to be any third option (well, ok, if one is willing to be a Pelagian). For those who are new to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, the following is an instructive primer on the two perennial branches of theological systems in Christianity. Or to put it another way, there are two very different ways for believers to view their salvation.
In general, the first type (the Arminian-Synergist) affirm what is called "synergism." They believe that two forces in the universe are necessary to bring about regeneration in the life of the sinner. In specifics, the two forces at work (cooperation) that are necessary to bring about regeneration, or spiritual life, is the will of man and the Holy Spirit (grace).
To put it another way, the work of the Holy Spirit is dependent on the creature’s will, hence, “synergism” (working together). These individuals will sincerely say, “I believe in grace alone.” But in reality, they believe that grace is not alone (sufficient), but that man’s will is necessary for regeneration to be effective.
It could be said that these individuals are “functional” Arminians because even though some will deny the label, their theology functions synergistically (thus, how they identify themselves is inconsistent with what they teach and believe).
The second group of believers (the Calvinist-Monergist) affirm what is called “monergism.” They believe that there is only one force in the universe (grace alone) that brings about regeneration in the life of the sinner. In specifics, because of the deadness of man’s spiritual state, his moral inability, the Holy Spirit performs the miracle of spiritual resurrection (regeneration) in that person, hence, “monergism” (one work). Grace is sufficient to be effective, and does not depend on some action of man.
In other words, the Holy Spirit does not merely whisper in the hardened sinner’s ear and hopes that the rebel sinner will “cooperate”; rather, while the sinner is in a state of hardness and rebellion, the Holy Spirit penetrates in the will of man and performs the miracle of spiritual life (regeneration). That is grace alone. Faith does not precede regeneration, regeneration precedes faith.

 

[PETE_]

Ok, I am from an area that had a sort of mixed response in Katrina. The inland areas had a little wind damage but they were fine. We were a bit too far east to get a major wind impact though our area did see gusts in the 100 mph range, which is not really a powerful gust. Our waterfront areas took a heavy beating. We had the worst storm surge impact in 90 years. Areas that were not even on flood maps for hurricanes because they simply had not flooded found themselves inundated with water. I take Katrina very personally because of the people I knew who were affected by the storm and because even today you can see the effects of it in the hardest hit areas.


It was during Katrina that a member of the state legislaure, made a comment that the storm was a "punishment from God."

Now one might just associate that as a meaningless comment but there is just one thing. This state legislator is from an area that is Bible Belt to the core, and the one thing that everyone who lives in the South knows is that the areas that were affected by Katrina are historically Catholic areas and that the perception is these are Catholic areas. When this state legislator made his comment about Katrina, there was simply no other way to take it than to believe that it was motivated out of anti-Catholicism.


When anti-Catholicism ceases to exist we'll stop worrying about whether people are anti-Catholic or not. We won't do so before then.

I think it is ridiculous when people try and declare God's motives for things like this, but generally it is attributed to the openly sinfullness of the people. Never heard it called anti-catholic til now, and I think it is justa big a stretch.

 

[Rhamiel]

Simon

The "Calvinist vs. Arminian" debate throughout church history is substantially a debate between what is called "synergism" and "monergism." It is impossible for there to be any third option (well, ok, if one is willing to be a Pelagian). For those who are new to the Calvinist-Arminian debate, the following is an instructive primer on the two perennial branches of theological systems in Christianity

I do not want to get off topic, but that is not really true, the Catholics and Orthodox are neither Arminian or Calvinist
Arminian and Calvinist are only Protestant theologies, now an argument can be made that the Catholic and Orthodox are close to Arminian, close but not the same

 

[Joachim]

I think it is ridiculous when people try and declare God's motives for things like this, but generally it is attributed to the openly sinfullness of the people. Never heard it called anti-catholic til now, and I think it is justa big a stretch.

The national media didn't pick up on that because most people in the national media aren't from the region and so they didn't realize that there could be a double meaning inherent in such a statement. Those of us who have grown up in the region and who have grown up being taught that people in our respective states view us as some kind of Sodom and Gomorrah because of our culture.....well, we become very sensitive to that kind of thing and most of us are taught it in childhood. It only didn't become a big issue here because local media decided not to cover it because of the response that it would have provoked.


It's one of those cultural subtexts. When someone is making a comment about Utah and they comment about certain aspects about what is negative about it they usually do it to take a swipe with Mormonism while not owning up to it by simply claiming that they are taking a swipe at a state even though we all know the meaning behind it.


Also because in Alabama and Mississippi, there is a long tradition of politicians from other parts of the respective states using attacks on the coastal areas as a rhetorical tool. One famous case is Hugo Black, who used it to get into the United States Senate which eventually allowed him to parlay a Supreme Court appointment.

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon I do not want to get off topic, but that is not really true, the Catholics and Orthodox are neither Arminian or Calvinist
Arminian and Calvinist are only Protestant theologies, now an argument can be made that the Catholic and Orthodox are close to Arminian, close but not the same

Rhamiel I only posted that prewritten article to help articulate to sunlover a view of Arminian verses calvinism...

 

[Thekla]

You have to remember these statements in their historical context. They sprang from an age when expressing publically theological differences with the Pope to get you imprisoned or even killed. That does not mean that they were correct to do so, but it makes it easier to undestand why some felt that way at the time. It is also no reason to dismiss everything else they had to say.

Actually, I have here a copy of Halley's Bible Handbook (Chicago, 21st edition, 1957), which also refers to the RC in this manner.

 

[sunlover1]

we do not agree with protestant doctrine, but Protestants do not agree with Catholic doctrine, that does not either side "anti" anything
I agree with you, there are wheat and tares in all groups
Now some Catholics are "anti-Protestant" and will say that Protestants are not Christian, but they are few and far between, and the Catholic Church says that they are wrong.
on the other hand there are whole congregations that say that Catholics can not be Christian.

Simon, for what it is worth, I agree that the term "anti-Catholic is thrown around too much, to be a Protestant, well that means you do not agree with Catholic doctrine, that does not make someone anti-Catholic

I havent attended a service that said such about Catholicism Rham,
but since i was ostracized as a young catholic girl, i believe it might
be true.

Rhamiel I only posted that prewritten article to help articulate to sunlover a view of Arminian verses calvinism...

And I thank you.
Am off to read the article right now.

 

[Rick Otto]

Anti-Catholics are people, too.

Having said that,... simon, it is unmanly of you to whine.

 

[simonthezealot]

I think it is ridiculous when people try and declare God's motives for things like this, but generally it is attributed to the openly sinfullness of the people. Never heard it called anti-catholic til now, and I think it is justa big a stretch.

Yes HE abandons/gives sinners over to their desires See Romans 1...

 

[sunlover1]

Anti-Catholics are people, too.

Having said that,... simon, it is unmanly of you to whine.

LOL.
perfect otto answer.
I LOVE this thread, because it brings us all together
Just like the old days!

 

[Yarddog]

What was meant by that is for people to come out of false teaching, and seek the LORD.
I doubt you'll ever find me referring to Catholocism as the harlot of Babylon because personally I believe it is not the case, while I can understand why in the first 400 years after the reformation it was the overwhelming belief of reformists, I wouldn't be so confident as that.

Hello Simon,
It's been a while. Though I have never called you anti-catholic I could see how many would say that when you could make a statement like the one that I underlined.

Catholics know that God is in the RCC and most have no need to seek what they have already found. Trying to dispute the doctrines of a Church is one thing but questioning their place with God is another.

You are a man that wears his faith on his sleeve for all to see. That is admirable. Standing up for what you believe is also admirable. Telling someone that has the Lord to seek the Lord is not.

We christians are all God's children. Calvinist, Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, etc... God is in each of us and we need to see that.

God Bless,
Yarddog

 

[simonthezealot]

Anti-Catholics are people, too.

Having said that,... simon, it is unmanly of you to whine.

Shoot dang (been round sunlover to much)
Not whining just got sick of the the drum beating of the bigotry emotion, wanted to talk about it.