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Answering any questions on Evolution

MostlyLurking

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Darwin, Dawkins, Provine and P.Z Meyers are all on record as saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today.

Do you agree - or do you think they are wrong?

I don't see why it would matter to anyone what those four think about anything in relation to the Bible.

Of those, Darwin probably had the most Bible knowledge. But I'm having difficulty recalling anything which Darwin wrote which makes that claim of "not all all compatable."

Obviously, millions of Christians (from various Popes to champions of Biblical inerrancy like Benjamin Warfield) see no incompatibility. Indeed, considering how many scientists, including evolutionary biologists, who endorse both the Bible and the theory of evolution, any suggestion of incompatibility seems rather odd.
 
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SkyWriting

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Regardless, you only have to read two chapters of genesis to 'read up' on creation.
The amount of reading required to understand all that we have discovered about evolution in the last 150+ years would take a life time.

So evolution isn't a fundamental force that abides by any natural laws of nature, and is present in all forms of life?
It doesn't completely surround us, encapsulate us, build the foundation of humanity and define us as lifeforms?
It hasn't been present and visible for some 2 million years and admired and worshiped as the driving force for all of life throughout the Cosmos?

See........now I would think it would.

The way I see it,
"Parents pass on genes to their mutant offspring who are whittled away by environmental forces so that only the best suited survive."
Did I miss anything covered in your reading?
 
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Blayz

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So evolution isn't a fundamental force that abides by any natural laws of nature, and is present in all forms of life?

No, yes, don't know.

It doesn't completely surround us, encapsulate us, build the foundation of humanity and define us as lifeforms?
no, no, no, maybe.

It hasn't been present and visible for some 2 million years and admired and worshiped as the driving force for all of life throughout the Cosmos?
yes, no, no


See........now I would think it would.
A layman's thoughts on evolution aren't particularly authoritative.

The way I see it,
"Parents pass on genes to their mutant offspring who are whittled away by environmental forces so that only the best suited survive."
Did I miss anything covered in your reading?
You see it very wrong.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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The way I see it,
"Parents pass on genes to their mutant offspring who are whittled away by environmental forces so that only the best suited survive."
Did I miss anything covered in your reading?

This is a very simplistic view. There is an awful lot more concerning evolution.

E.g. to understand evolution, you need to understand a lot of the ecology that confers ecological advantages, provides multiple niches, with new niches appearing over time. You need to understand competitive exclusion, complicated predator/prey relationships, how DNA works to code for organisms, how DNA works in both sexual and asexual reproduction, how mutations work, how genetic assortment works, how speciation works, and on and on and on.

Then, that's only how evolution works as a process. Then there's the study of how evolution actually happened on our earth. E.g. how horses and whales evolved. And looking at that, it's important to understand not only what we know about the history of life on this planet, but also the techniques and methods used to obtain and interpret the evidence, etc. And on and on and on.
 
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madaz

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Well that doesn't make sense since most evolutionists are Christians and most Christians are evolutionists...

Very few Christians are fundamentalist creationists...


Also I think you'll find that atheists know more about the Bible than most Christians...

The biggest factor in my deconversion was the first time I actually sat down and read the whole Bible. Took me about 3 months but I did it... Yes even the begat, begat, begat, parts.

Well said, good on you for reading the bible, at least now you can criticise from an informed position as opposed to so many religious people who simply make judgement from ignorance. It is said that the bible supports Atheism more than any other book. I would have to agree.
 
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madaz

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I don't see why it would matter to anyone what those four think about anything in relation to the Bible.

Of those, Darwin probably had the most Bible knowledge. But I'm having difficulty recalling anything which Darwin wrote which makes that claim of "not all all compatable."

Obviously, millions of Christians (from various Popes to champions of Biblical inerrancy like Benjamin Warfield) see no incompatibility. Indeed, considering how many scientists, including evolutionary biologists, who endorse both the Bible and the theory of evolution, any suggestion of incompatibility seems rather odd.

Well said, however I must point out that discussing the bible (or any other holy book) in the context of evolution is no different to discussing micky mouse in the context of motorcycle riding. Two completely different things! However I can understand creationists wanting to find compatibility. It may somehow in their minds give the bible some credibility.
 
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SkyWriting

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Well said, however I must point out that discussing the bible (or any other holy book) in the context of evolution is no different to discussing Micky mouse in the context of motorcycle riding. Two completely different things! However I can understand creationists wanting to find compatibility. It may somehow in their minds give the bible some credibility.

They fail to understand that the point of the Bible, cover to cover, is an explanation of origins. Darwin rejected this message of origins and wrote his own version.

The purpose of Darwin's book on Origins was an attempt to merge his views on nature with Creationism. It fails because he had too little background in the scriptures and simply thought of it as a mechanical book. He never grasped that the scriptures are about man's relationship with his source, our Father in Heaven. And why we age.










51F4OM6v37L._AA300_.jpg
 
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madaz

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They fail to understand that the point of the Bible, cover to cover, is an explanation of origins. Darwin rejected this message of origins and wrote his own version.

The purpose of Darwin's book on Origins was an attempt to merge his views on nature with Creationism. It fails because he had too little background in the scriptures and simply thought of it as a mechanical book. He never grasped that the scriptures are about man's relationship with his source, our Father in Heaven. And why we age.

What a load of complete garbage!!! You obviously have not read the bible or the origin of species because you seem to know nothing about either book.
 
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KhaosTheory

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What a load of complete garbage!!! You obviously have not read the bible or the origin of species because you seem to know nothing about either book.

You'll find this is a common problem with a lot of creationists. Sure, they might not know anything about their own holy book or anything about science; but they sure can yell loudly and recite things their pastor said last Sunday!

Oh, and they have the uncanny ability for copy/pasting things from answers in genesis... they are pretty good at that too...
 
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Naraoia

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Also I think you'll find that atheists know more about the Bible than most Christians...
To be fair, I'm not one of those atheists, which is what started this whole conversation. I read my children's Bible with the beautiful illustrations and interesting historical/archaeological/cultural tidbits, but I got bored of the real thing somewhere early in the Old Testament.
 
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SkyWriting

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What a load of complete garbage!!! You obviously have not read the bible or the origin of species because you seem to know nothing about either book.

Great argument. You win.
 
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SkyWriting

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You'll find this is a common problem with a lot of creationists. Sure, they might not know anything about their own holy book or anything about science; but they sure can yell loudly and recite things their pastor said last Sunday!

Oh, and they have the uncanny ability for copy/pasting things from answers in genesis... they are pretty good at that too...

You must be new here.
 
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SkyWriting

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This is a very simplistic view. There is an awful lot more concerning evolution.

Of course there are more details. But it's all covered in this one sentence that I created on the fly with one change.
"Parents pass on genes to their mutant offspring who are whittled away by environmental forces so that only the best suited survive."
I added the word "Mutant" after the first draft. Here. I'll revise it.

"Parents pass on two sets of genes, which combine imperfectly in their offspring. Most of the the resulting variations young die due to the local environmental forces so that only the best suited survive and reproduce in any one location or environment. "

150 years of reading.....done. What's so hard to understand?
The missing law of nature that sustains this process? yup.
http://www.entropylaw.com/
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Of course there are more details. But it's all covered in this one sentence that I created on the fly with one change.
"Parents pass on genes to their mutant offspring who are whittled away by environmental forces so that only the best suited survive."
I added the word "Mutant" after the first draft. Here. I'll revise it.

"Parents pass on two sets of genes, which combine imperfectly in their offspring. Most of the the resulting variations young die due to the local environmental forces so that only the best suited survive and reproduce in any one location or environment. "

150 years of reading.....done. What's so hard to understand?
The missing law of nature that sustains this process? yup.
ENTROPY, THE FIRST AND SECOND LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS AND THE LAW OF MAXIMUM ENTROPY PRODUCTION

This is like saying that the ocean can be summed up in one word: WET.

And then saying that how on earth then can the ocean be salty and have things living in it.

Can you describe in words how any laws of entropy argue against evolution?
 
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NailsII

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So evolution isn't a fundamental force that abides by any natural laws of nature, and is present in all forms of life?
No, yes, and as far as we know - yes.
Evolution would appear to be a fundamental force, and it must obey the laws of nature - like the laws of chemistry for example.
Evolution has laws as well, you might want to indulge yourself.
The law of common descent states that all members of any species share a common ancestor.
The law of natural selection.
Mendel's laws of inheritance.

It doesn't completely surround us, encapsulate us, build the foundation of humanity and define us as lifeforms?
And bind the galaxy together....
Maybe not.

It hasn't been present and visible for some 2 million years and admired and worshiped as the driving force for all of life throughout the Cosmos?
present and visable yes, for at least 2 billion years (maybe close to double that actually) - admired yes, worshipped no.
No.
* sigh *

You would so love science to be a religion.

I know of no-one who has fallen to his knees and thanked Darwin for his mighty theory, and proclaimed him as their lord and saviour.

The way I see it,
"Parents pass on genes to their mutant offspring who are whittled away by environmental forces so that only the best suited survive."
Did I miss anything covered in your reading?
Not all offspring are mutant.
There other changes, such as epigenetic effects and translocations, replications, deletions etc.
Charles Darwin himself actually put it quite neatly in Origin, so to paraphrase him:
Many more offspring are born than could ever possibly survive in nature.
This creates a struggle for survival, where those best suited - or biologically fit - to their environment tend to have more offspring and pass on such favourable traits to their offspring.

A better definition:
Life is the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.
They fail to understand that the point of the Bible, cover to cover, is an explanation of origins. Darwin rejected this message of origins and wrote his own version.
Funnily, many of your Christian brothers see the bible as a literal history - only the first few collection of stories is about origins.
But hey, what would I know.
Darwin did reject the biblical view yes, because he could not reconcile it with the real world - the world of nature he observed over many, many years.

The purpose of Darwin's book on Origins was an attempt to merge his views on nature with Creationism. It fails because he had too little background in the scriptures and simply thought of it as a mechanical book. He never grasped that the scriptures are about man's relationship with his source, our Father in Heaven. And why we age.
Charles Darwin was actually training to be a minister, so i think his biblical knowledge would actually have been quite good.
I don't believe, having read Origin, that he intended to merge it with creationism at all - quite the opposite.
Aging by the way is irrelevant.

One quote that does spring to mind is this one:
Charles Darwin said:
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars.

Darwin observed that nature is cold, heartless, it pays no attention to pain and suffering, it just marches on relentlesly.
This is in direct contradiction to the bible's description Jesus.

Charles Darwin said:
It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.
 
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madaz

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No, yes, and as far as we know - yes.
Evolution would appear to be a fundamental force, and it must obey the laws of nature - like the laws of chemistry for example.
Evolution has laws as well, you might want to indulge yourself.
The law of common descent states that all members of any species share a common ancestor.
The law of natural selection.
Mendel's laws of inheritance.

And bind the galaxy together....
Maybe not.

present and visable yes, for at least 2 billion years (maybe close to double that actually) - admired yes, worshipped no.
No.
* sigh *

You would so love science to be a religion.

I know of no-one who has fallen to his knees and thanked Darwin for his mighty theory, and proclaimed him as their lord and saviour.


Not all offspring are mutant.
There other changes, such as epigenetic effects and translocations, replications, deletions etc.
Charles Darwin himself actually put it quite neatly in Origin, so to paraphrase him:
Many more offspring are born than could ever possibly survive in nature.
This creates a struggle for survival, where those best suited - or biologically fit - to their environment tend to have more offspring and pass on such favourable traits to their offspring.

A better definition:
Life is the non-random survival of randomly varying replicators.
Funnily, many of your Christian brothers see the bible as a literal history - only the first few collection of stories is about origins.
But hey, what would I know.
Darwin did reject the biblical view yes, because he could not reconcile it with the real world - the world of nature he observed over many, many years.


Charles Darwin was actually training to be a minister, so i think his biblical knowledge would actually have been quite good.
I don't believe, having read Origin, that he intended to merge it with creationism at all - quite the opposite.
Aging by the way is irrelevant.

One quote that does spring to mind is this one:


Darwin observed that nature is cold, heartless, it pays no attention to pain and suffering, it just marches on relentlesly.
This is in direct contradiction to the bible's description Jesus.

Thanks for saving me the time to explain, much appreciated. I can say without sarcasm good argument. YOU WON!
 
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SkyWriting

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This is like saying that the ocean can be summed up in one word: WET.
And then saying that how on earth then can the ocean be salty and have things living in it.
Can you describe in words how any laws of entropy argue against evolution?

I've done that scores of times. What I've always been looking for
is a major or minor law, or hypothesis even that supports the notion
of a common and simple origin for all life. Jus' one little rule we can
test for validity.

Because all life springs from this one point, then some rule must
be allowing it to happen. Something completely universal and present
in all life that we find.
 
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SkyWriting

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Darwin observed that nature is cold, heartless, it pays no attention to pain and suffering, it just marches on relentlesly.
This is in direct contradiction to the bible's description Jesus.

My stand exactly. We are linked arm and arm. :)

(I'll have to read through your laws before I comment.)



Charles Darwin was actually training to be a minister, so i think his biblical knowledge would actually have been quite good.

Good biblical knowledge is not the key.

"And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written,"He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God. And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke 4:9-13)
 
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SkyWriting

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Thanks for saving me the time to explain, much appreciated. I can say without sarcasm good argument. YOU WON!

People can say lots of things. Everyone gets an opinion. :)
 
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Blayz

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I've done that scores of times. What I've always been looking for
is a major or minor law, or hypothesis even that supports the notion
of a common and simple origin for all life. Jus' one little rule we can
test for validity.

You will never find it. Biology is complicated. The fact you want to reduce it to a level a 5 year old can understand notwithstanding.

Because all life springs from this one point, then some rule must
be allowing it to happen. Something completely universal and present
in all life that we find.
Nope, no matter how much you wish that were true.

People can say lots of things. Everyone gets an opinion. :)

But not all opinions are equally valid. Your opinions on biology are as valid as my interpretations of scripture.

Here's an opinion I overheard viewing a Noah's Ark diorama at the Kentucky creationist museum:

~six year old girl: "What's going to happen to all those lions and tigers [perched on rocks trying to evade rising flood waters]

slightly older presumed sister: "They are all going to drown in the flood"

SYOG: [almost in tears] What? all drown? Why doesn't God save them?

SOPS: Well, God cannot save everyone!
 
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