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Answering any questions on Evolution

verysincere

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I hate to point out the obvious, but Down's syndrome is not a mutation.
Nor is it caused by one.

If you don't understand how biology works, then stop pretending to be an expert.


Isn't "pointing out the obvious" what we spend most of our time doing on these threads? It's like one big long remedial biology class, with lots of one-on-one tutoring for those who just never seem to "get it".

For that matter, people who know nothing about evolution pretending to be experts and always telling the world's scientists what is wrong with evolution theory is why the remediation is necessary.

The Down Syndrome blunder was a very representative example of the pseudo-science here.

.
 
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BobRyan

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Hi,

I'm an atheist and a genetic/microbiological scientist and because this is a Christian forum I've opened this thread so anyone who wishes to know more about Evolution or my beliefs or why I hold them can ask me questions accordingly.

I would however like a respectful debate, but feel free to counteract anything I say if you disagree. I will try my hardest to remain respectful. Thanks :)

OK people, ask away.

Atheist evolutionists like Colin Patterson had a lot to say about evolution -- particularly the gaps in the theory and flaws in the way the science is conducted.

Are you aware of this critique - or do you use the "all news is good news" model?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Question 2 -

Darwin, Dawkins, Provine and P.Z Meyers are all on record as saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today.

Do you agree - or do you think they are wrong?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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Guy1

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Question 2 -

Darwin, Dawkins, Provine and P.Z Meyers are all on record as saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today.

First of all I've never heard of any of this, second the first one is correct, third the bible makes no mention of descent with modification, and fourth evolution explains the complex life quite well.
 
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Naraoia

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Question 2 -

Darwin, Dawkins, Provine and P.Z Meyers are all on record as saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today.

Do you agree - or do you think they are wrong?

in Christ,

Bob
I think I know very little about the Bible. And also, it depends on your interpretation. A literal few-day creation of every living thing after its "kind" (whatever that means, it sure isn't a small number of simple ancestors!) is incompatible with everything we know about evolution, but not everyone takes the Bible as a literal history lesson.
 
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SkyWriting

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I think I know very little about the Bible.

Would it seem a little odd if I went to a Physics discussion forum and declared I know very little about Physics?
I'm going to try it and see how much respect I get.

Science vs Religion - supporting evidence? [Archive] - Physics Forums
Nope. Only 9 posts years old.

http://www.molecularstation.com/forum/science-religion-forum/
2 week old post.

OK. I see the situation. This is the only active forum on the topic. Still, my question stands.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Atheist evolutionists like Colin Patterson had a lot to say about evolution -- particularly the gaps in the theory and flaws in the way the science is conducted.

Workin' in a quote mine
Goin' down down

Darwin, Dawkins, Provine and P.Z Meyers are all on record as saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today.

You keep repeating this and we keep asking you to show us were Darwin is "on record as saying" this, but you never once have provided us with a quote.

Why is that?
 
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SkyWriting

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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Research takes a lot of practice.

Indeed, but based on your response, plugging some words into a search engine and then posting a quote that in no way shows that Darwin "saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today."

"The old argument of design in nature, as given by Paley, which formerly seemed to me so conclusive, fails, now that the law of natural selection has been discovered. "

To a Creationist, one wouldn't even need to look for a quote from Darwin discussing design. Origin doesn't describe a literal 6 day fiat creation that literalist Creationists insist upon. Nothing in that quote denies God setting laws in motion that govern "how complex life came about as we see it today". In fact, if you had done some actual research, that quote was little more than a repudiation of Paley's natural theology.
Darwin Correspondence Project » Darwin and design
Yet Darwin’s beliefs about the role of a Creator changed over time. Nor does his criticism of Paley mean that he necessarily discounted other versions of natural theology, such as that of William Herschel. Indeed, the second edition of Origin of species (1860) contains a new epigraph from the famous Christian apologist, Joseph Butler, which reads:

The only distinct meaning of the word ‘natural’ is stated, fixed or settled; since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent agent to render it so, i.e. to effect it continually or at stated times, as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once.​
And there's this from Origin referencing Charles Kingsley:
origin-of-species-2nd-ed-p.481-kingsley-quote_sm.jpg


You might also check out this paper from the ASA discussing Darwin and Asa Gray's correspondance regarding design.
Charles Darwin and Asa Gray Discuss Teleology and Design
especially this paragraph.
When Origins was published, Gray wrote a clear, positive, yet critical review in The American Journal of Science. Aware of mounting religious opposition, he ended his review by arguing that whereas one could use Darwin's theory in support of an atheistic view of Nature, one could use any scientific theory in that way. He wrote: "The theory of gravitation and ... the nebular hypothesis assume a universal and ultimate physical cause, from which the effects in nature must necessarily have resulted."5 He did not see the physicists and astronomers who adopted Newton's theories as atheists or pantheists, though Leibnitz earlier had raised such reservations. And a similar situation existed with the origin of species by natural selection. Darwin, Gray continued: "merely takes up a particular, proximate cause, or set of such causes, from which, it is argued, the present diversity of species has or may have contingently resulted. The author does not say necessarily resulted."6 This far Gray could go with Darwin. But there was a point at which he parted company, and that was the fortuitous randomness of the process that Darwin's theory seemed to imply.
 
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AnotherAtheist

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Isn't "pointing out the obvious" what we spend most of our time doing on these threads? It's like one big long remedial biology class, with lots of one-on-one tutoring for those who just never seem to "get it".

Because, unfortunately, that is the way the world works. These people not only "don't get it", they are absolutely decided on "not getting it". But, if they keep up spouting ignorance, misunderstanding, and lies, and nobody calls them on it, then they win.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. The price of truth is the same.
 
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Naraoia

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Would it seem a little odd if I went to a Physics discussion forum and declared I know very little about Physics?
No. What would seem odd if you then went on to insist that people who know more than you are Just Wrong about physics Because [insert bogus reason].

I'm going to try it and see how much respect I get.
Honestly, what's wrong with an admission of ignorance? Would it be better if I just barged in and started spewing my uninformed opinions of the Bible without disclaimers?
 
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NailsII

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Question 2 -

Darwin, Dawkins, Provine and P.Z Meyers are all on record as saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today.

Do you agree - or do you think they are wrong?
I agree - but with a caveat.
i am not a biblical authority, so I am basing my knowledge of the bible on my interpretation of a translation of a copy of a copy of a long-lost ancient text which may well have been based on an oral tradition which dates back even further.

Evolution implies that, if there is a god, he never created any animal or plant - in direct contradiction to genesis.
Science tells us that there was no Adam & Eve, so any literal reading of this story is misplaced. With this in mind, original sin has no basis in fact so the sacrifice of god's son to forgive this metaphorical sin is completely unnessesary - and as such, in my opinion, Christianity fails at the first hurdle.
 
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SkyWriting

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No. What would seem odd if you then went on to insist that people who know more than you are Just Wrong about physics Because [insert bogus reason].

Honestly, what's wrong with an admission of ignorance? Would it be better if I just barged in and started spewing my uninformed opinions of the Bible without disclaimers?

It's hard to talk about Creation & Evolution if you only know half of the topic.
 
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SkyWriting

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Indeed, but based on your response, plugging some words into a search engine and then posting a quote that in no way shows that Darwin "saying that at its core - evolution is not at all compatible with the Bible on the subject of how complex life came about as we see it today."

You're quoting from the published introduction to Darwin's books.
The first few pages.
 
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NailsII

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It's hard to talk about Creation & Evolution if you only know half of the topic.
I know plenty of creationists who don't even know half....
:D

Regardless, you only have to read two chapters of genesis to 'read up' on creation.
The amount of reading required to understand all that we have discovered about evolution in the last 150+ years would take a life time.
This is because the CrEvo debate isn't about the bible, its about the evidence that science has uncovered and how it is interpreted.
You don't need to know anything about the bible to be a creationist or an 'evolutionist'.
 
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USincognito

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You're quoting from the published introduction to Darwin's books.
The first few pages.

Your fantasies amuse me. The quote regarding Kingsley, per the screen cap, clearly says p. 451. And my other quote was from a private correspondance.
 
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Naraoia

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It's hard to talk about Creation & Evolution if you only know half of the topic.
(A) I can still read the arguments you guys make. Since many of them at least pretend to be about the science, I'm somewhat qualified to comment on them. (B) If they are about the Bible, I can always peruse the source. It's not like it isn't online in twelve gazillion different translations. Alternatively, I can admit my ignorance and bow out.

Besides, I didn't say I knew nothing about it. Funnily enough, the creation stories are among those parts I've actually read...
 
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DaneaFL

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It's hard to talk about Creation & Evolution if you only know half of the topic.

Well that doesn't make sense since most evolutionists are Christians and most Christians are evolutionists...

Very few Christians are fundamentalist creationists...
Pew Forum: Religious Groups' Opinions of Evolution

Also I think you'll find that atheists know more about the Bible than most Christians...

The biggest factor in my deconversion was the first time I actually sat down and read the whole Bible. Took me about 3 months but I did it... Yes even the begat, begat, begat, parts.
 
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KhaosTheory

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Yeah It's at least encouraging that reason and thinking are winning out over blind faith...

Slowly but surely...

I can foresee the death of religion entirely in the next few generations if the sociopolitical situation changes just a bit more in this country to where religion isn't given a free-pass in the media and in politics.

Europe is already setting an example of successful predominately atheistic societies with low crime rates and higher standards of living.

Combine these worldwide examples with the internet and religion will decrease exponentially faster once the trend catches on.

All it takes is 1 generation of parents saying "I'm not going to teach my kids this crap" to completely end the cycle of indoctrination.

That's why it kills me to see these fundy wackos having like 9-10 kids... Smart people need to start having more babies! Do it for society!
 
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