Answer me this question.

[Clare73]

"Israel is not chosen for salvation but for a purpose. They are called to display who Yahweh is to all the nations, so that all would come to know and worship the one true God. Salvation to the nations was not plan B. It was God’s mission all along.

Israel is in the perfect position to reveal God to the nations. They have seen and experienced Yahweh’s power and rescue for themselves." Who has God chosen? | BibleProject™

How would that work, since it wasn't until Peter had his vision regarding clean and unclean, five years after Christ's ascension, that Jews would have anything to do with unclean Gentiles? How would they have been in a position to display YHWH to all the nations prior to the NT?

 

[Clare73]

duplicate

 

[EJ M]

Having been Baptized in a Calvinist church and continued there until I understood what Calvin taught his disciples, I left because the God I worship said, whosoever will may come.........
Let him who is thirsty drink of the water of life freely.......
It’s not His will that any should perish.......
To serve Calvin’s God????
Calvin’s doctrine says God blesses conception, birth, adolescence, adulthood, middle age, old age and all of life to fuel the fires of hell.
Predestined to be damned in the lake of fire forever.
Calvin says God blesses conception, birth, etc. to be saved no matter how vile. Predestined to be saved.
My humble opinion is Calvin invented the concept of TULIP to salve his conscience after murdering a number of people and unrepentantly writing he would do it again.
Calvin would surely have known the scripture that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
So emphasizing the scripture that proclaim the keeping power of God to those who believe, was IMHO misappropriated to OSAS, even a murderer.
Many are called but few are chosen, so who gets chosen?
All that answer the call.
Whosoever shall call on the Name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.
Praise the Lord!

 

[Guojing]

How would that work, since it wasn't until Peter had his vision regarding clean and unclean, five years after Christ's ascension, that Jews would have anything to do with unclean Gentiles? How would they have been in a position to display YHWH to all the nations prior to the NT?

It was based on Zechariah 8. The sequence was suppose to be

1. Israel the nation accepts Christ as the Son of God (John 20:31)
2. Jesus returns to forgive the sins of Israel and live with them in the promised land in Jerusalem (Acts 3:19-21)
3. Every Jew becomes a priests to bring gentiles to worship in Jerusalem (Zechariah 8:23)

 

[atpollard]

Having been Baptized in a Calvinist church and continued there until I understood what Calvin taught his disciples, I left because the God I worship said, whosoever will may come.........

• Reformed Theology agrees with scripture and you that “whosoever will may come”.
• Scripture teaches that among natural man, no one “wills” (desires) to come ...
  • [Genesis 8:21 NASB] The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
    
  • [John 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    
  • [Romans 3:10-12 NASB] 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Let him who is thirsty drink of the water of life freely.......

• Reformed Theology agrees with scripture and you that the “water of life” is offered freely, but it is dangerous to build any theology from a single verse in a vision like Revelation 22:17. So here is what we believe about the grace of God ...
  
  • [John 1:14-17 RSV] 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 15 (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'") 16 And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    
  • [John 1:12-13 RSV] 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    
  • [Ephesians 2:1-10 RSV] 1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It’s not His will that any should perish.......

• Reformed Theology agrees with scripture, but most people ignore the context surrounding this verse and misunderstand what God and the author is saying. The same God wrote the following that must also be true ...
  • [Malachi 1:2-5 RSV] 2 "I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How hast thou loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" says the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but I have hated Esau; I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert." 4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the LORD of hosts says, "They may build, but I will tear down, till they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry for ever." 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, "Great is the LORD, beyond the border of Israel!"
    
  • [Romans 9:15-24 RSV] 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

To serve Calvin’s God????
Calvin’s doctrine says God blesses conception, birth, adolescence, adulthood, middle age, old age and all of life to fuel the fires of hell.
Predestined to be damned in the lake of fire forever.
Calvin says God blesses conception, birth, etc. to be saved no matter how vile. Predestined to be saved.

• You have misunderstood the Doctrine of Predestination. All men are born with the free will to follow their nature, but they are born with a nature that is a slave to sin (fallen since Adam). If God did absolutely nothing, all men would reject His offer of forgiveness and EVERYONE would end up in Hell suffering the Righteous Judgement we ALL deserve. God was unwilling to do nothing, so God chose to “foreknow” (a personal relationship knowledge) some people before the foundation of the world that God would save. God then predestined these “elect / chosen” individuals to receive His grace (unmerited favor). Here are descriptions of what God has done for those that He chose:
  • [John 6:44 RSV] 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    
  • [John 10:27-29 RSV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
    
  • [Matthew 13:11 RSV] 11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
    
  • [Acts 2:37 RSV] 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
    
  • [Acts 16:14 RSV] 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyati'ra, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.

 

[Clare73]

It was based on Zechariah 8. The sequence was suppose to be

1. Israel the nation accepts Christ as the Son of God (John 20:31)
2. Jesus returns to forgive the sins of Israel and live with them in the promised land in Jerusalem (Acts 3:19-21)
3. Every Jew becomes a priests to bring gentiles to worship in Jerusalem (Zechariah 8:23)

Thanks. . .

Chronologically, Nehemiah and Malachi follow Zec 1- 8, and Zec 9 -14 follow Malachi.
It's Zec 1- 8, Nehemiah, Malachi, Zec 9 -14.

However, some 400 years before the advent of the Messiah, Zec 8 is fulfilled in the return from exile, the rebuilding of the Temple, rebuilding of the walls, Ezra's reading of the Law, break out of revival, their confession of sin, their binding themselves in agreement to obey the Law, and idolatry never again being found among them, Zec 8:3 making no mention of every Jew becoming a priest.

Ac 2:23 reveals that the plan for the Messiah was: to be "handed over to the Jews by God's set purpose and foreknowledge, and they put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

I don't see Zec 8 explaining how the gospel would be taken to the Gentiles in the time of Messiah.
.

 

[Guojing]

Thanks. . .

Chronologically, Nehemiah and Malachi follow Zec 1- 8, and Zec 9 -14 follow Malachi.
It's Zec 1- 8, Nehemiah, Malachi, Zec 9 -14.

However, some 400 years before the advent of the Messiah, Zec 8 is fulfilled in the return from exile, the rebuilding of the Temple, rebuilding of the walls, Ezra's reading of the Law, break out of revival, their confession of sin, their binding themselves in agreement to obey the Law, and idolatry never again being found among them, Zec 8:3 making no mention of every Jew becoming a priest.

Ac 2:23 reveals that the plan for the Messiah was: to be "handed over to the Jews by God's set purpose and foreknowledge, and they put him to death by nailing him to the cross."

I don't see Zec 8 explaining how the gospel would be taken to the Gentiles in the time of Messiah.
.

Zechariah 8:23 is clear right?

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

This will now take place during the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ

 

[disciple Clint]

How would that work, since it wasn't until Peter had his vision regarding clean and unclean, five years after Christ's ascension, that Jews would have anything to do with unclean Gentiles? How would they have been in a position to display YHWH to all the nations prior to the NT?

That would work by them being an example of faith to God over their history. The Jews had always had gentiles who they allowed to convert to their religion, to say that they would not associate with gentiles at all is simply wrong.

 

[Guojing]

That would work by them being an example of faith to God over their history. The Jews had always had gentiles who they allowed to convert to their religion, to say that they would not associate with gentiles at all is simply wrong.

They associate with gentiles after the latter became Jews? (Acts 11:1)

 

[Eilat]

Does “whoever believes” really mean anyone and everyone?

Do you really believe you are supposed to be on a public forum, limiting God's Grace to your theological idea that The Cross and Jesus's blood are not offered as : John 3:16?

wake up.

 

[HIM]

So emphasizing the scripture that proclaim the keeping power of God to those who believe, was IMHO misappropriated to OSAS, even a murderer.
Many are called but few are chosen, so who gets chosen?
All that answer the call.
Whosoever shall call on the Name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.
Praise the Lord!

How does the differences in the following translation change the perception of the verse.

(CLV) Romans 10:13 For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved."

Invoking or calling? The suffix is really the issue.
"ing" implies ongoing calling or invoking.
This is what the Greek brings out in the original text.

 

[JohnDB]

Once upon a time...
The whole world was living in a patriarchal and caste system.

Abraham was old already when his name was changed from Abram to Abraham. Same with Sarah. Just because he was rich he didn't have an heir.
But God had promised him to be the father of many nations and languages.
Both Isaac and Ishmael and sons of Katura (midianites?) were physical manifestations of that promise.

But the day of Pentacost in Acts was the spiritual fulfilment of that promise.
From that day forward the Gospel message was spread everywhere. It started with none and became huge.

But the original group of Israelites...that was a direct result of Patriarchal and Caste based societies.

 

[BobRyan]

Once upon a time...
The whole world was living in a patriarchal and caste system.

Abraham was old already when his name was changed from Abram to Abraham. Same with Sarah. Just because he was rich he didn't have an heir.
But God had promised him to be the father of many nations and languages.
Both Isaac and Ishmael and sons of Katura (midianites?) were physical manifestations of that promise.

But the day of Pentacost in Acts was the spiritual fulfilment of that promise.
From that day forward the Gospel message was spread everywhere. It started with none and became huge.

But the original group of Israelites...that was a direct result of Patriarchal and Caste based societies.

Once upon a time God create humanity on Planet Earth - Adam and Eve. Adam was created first - and then Eve.

Legal code states it this way -
11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

But then Eve was deceived into eating from the tree of knowledge of evil - and then Adam without being deceived joined her in sin "anyway".

To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you shall deliver children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

Yet God also had this command "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 - for Adam and Eve.




Once upon a time God chose Abram to leave Ur of the Chaldees because Abraham was a worshiper of the one true God. God directed him to go to Canaan a land that God would give to Abram's descedents after more than 400 years but not to Abram.

Gal 3:8 "the Gospel was preached to Abraham".
John 8:56 Abraham saw the days of Christ on Earth - and was glad.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel

Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stood with Christ on the mt of transfiguration before the cross - in glory.

 

[BobRyan]

How does the differences in the following translation change the perception of the verse.

(CLV) Romans 10:13 For everyone, whoever should be invoking the name of the Lord, shall be saved."

Invoking or calling? The suffix is really the issue.
"ing" implies ongoing calling or invoking.
This is what the Greek brings out in the original text.

Amen!

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Rom 10

For "God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

And yet it is only the "few" of Matt 7 that will be saved at last.

John 1:11 "He came to His OWN and is own received Him not"

 

[BobRyan]

How would that work, since it wasn't until Peter had his vision regarding clean and unclean, five years after Christ's ascension, that Jews would have anything to do with unclean Gentiles? How would they have been in a position to display YHWH to all the nations prior to the NT?

Christ went to the gentiles in the gospels. Isaiah 56 a specific blessing for gentiles who keep the Sabbath and the statement that the house of God is "a house of prayer for all nations".

Ps 67:7 God blesses us, So that all the ends of the earth may fear Him.

Israel was not be a "nation of priests" Ex 19 - evangelizing the world.

 

[JohnDB]

Once upon a time God create humanity on Planet Earth - Adam and Eve. Adam was created first - and then Eve.

Legal code states it this way -
11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

But then Eve was deceived into eating from the tree of knowledge of evil - and then Adam without being deceived joined her in sin "anyway".

To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you shall deliver children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

Yet God also had this command "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 - for Adam and Eve.




Once upon a time God chose Abram to leave Ur of the Chaldees because Abraham was a worshiper of the one true God. God directed him to go to Canaan a land that God would give to Abram's descedents after more than 400 years but not to Abram.

Gal 3:8 "the Gospel was preached to Abraham".
John 8:56 Abraham saw the days of Christ on Earth - and was glad.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel

Matt 17 - Moses and Elijah stood with Christ on the mt of transfiguration before the cross - in glory.

I'm not sure of what point it is that you are trying to make here.

 

[Clare73]

Zechariah 8:23 is clear right?

This is what the Lord Almighty says: “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”

This will now take place during the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ

But the gospel is about Jesus' atoning death for the remittance of sin.
Where does that death take place in your understanding of Zec 8?

Jesus said he came to earth to die as a ransom for the sins of many (Mt 20:28; 1Ti 2:6; Heb 9:15).
The NT reveals that it was never God's plan that the advent of Messiah was to live with them in the promised land:

Ac 4:28 - "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
Ac 2:23 - "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

In Scripture, God doesn't do "Plan B". . .in a millennium or otherwise. . .it's always and only Plan A, because Plan A is always accomplished (Ac 4:28, 2:23), as was this Plan A on the cross.

Therefore, Zec 8 (not being about a non-existent plan of Messiah's advent in 3 A.D. to live with them in the promised land, but being about another event)
which other event fulfilled Zec 8 some 400 years before the advent of Messiah; i.e.,
the return from exile and the restoration of the Temple, the walls, revival breaking out, confession of sins, pledge to follow the Law, worship, and obedience,
where a response to that event as described in Zec 8:23 could be expected in light of the joy, celebration and feasting emanating from Jerusalem at the tme.

 

[Clare73]

That would work by them being an example of faith to God over their history. The Jews had always had gentiles who they allowed to convert to their religion, to say that they would not associate with gentiles at all is simply wrong.

Agreed. . .there were proselytes to Judaism, but that's not the same thing as regularly mixing it up with the unclean Gentiles to tell them about God.

The Jewish disposition toward Gentiles is seen in the NT, where Peter and the Jews considered them unclean and a source of defilement, requiring that the remedy of cleansing ordinances be applied whenever they came in contact with them.

Israel was not asked by God to have anything to do with Gentiles. It was just the opposite. Exposure to them was not only defiling, but a temptation to adopt Gentile ways, which was always a problem with Israel until their return from exile.

 

[JohnDB]

Agreed. . .there were proselytes to Judaism, but that's not the same thing as regularly mixing it up with the unclean Gentiles to tell them about God.

The Jewish disposition toward Gentiles is seen in the NT, where Peter and the Jews considered them unclean and a source of defilement, requiring that the remedy of cleansing ordinances be applied whenever they came in contact with them.

Israel was not asked by God to have anything to do with Gentiles. It was just the opposite. Exposure to them was not only defiling, but a temptation to adopt Gentile ways, which was always a problem with Israel until their return from exile.

What about Caleb from the 12 spies?
One of the "rabble" that went with the Israelites out of Egypt. He wasn't an Israeli but he was Hebrew (homeless)

 

[Clare73]

What about Caleb from the 12 spies?
One of the "rabble" that went with the Israelites out of Egypt.
He wasn't an Israeli but he was Hebrew (homeless)

Caleb is first mentioned in Nu 13:6, from the tribe of Judah.

I'm not familiar with what you are talking about. Would you bring me up to speed.