Another view at Kenosha

Helmut-WK · Aug 28, 2020

I only saw videos in German media, so maybe someone with more information may correct me.

I see a man (Blake) going to his car, followed by a policeman with a gun. I assume that the policemen did not force him to do so, so it looks that he stubbornly goes to his car, open the door, bows down ...

STOP. Think.

That is USA, a country were people can legally have weapons. The police must always reckon with the possibility that someones takes a weapon to shoot at them.

It seems to me the policeman feared Blake might grab a weapon, turn around and kill him. Blake was shot in a sort of panic.

This is not sure, and may even be proved wrong in the future. But this is the impression I got from looking on the video which showed the shooting.

No, this does not put the whole blame on Blake. There is some racism involved (would the policeman have reacted the same way if Blake were white?). And of course, the ease you can acquire a gun in Wisconsin.

Blake is not just a victim of racism, he also is a victim of his right to carry weapon. A right that has claimed more victims in Kenosha.

Pavel Mosko · Aug 28, 2020

helmut said:
I see a man (Blake) going to his car, followed by a policeman with a gun. I assume that the policemen did not force him to do so, so it looks that he stubbornly goes to his car, open the door, bows down ...

Uh you do not have a pass to disregard a police order. You also are required to put away or secure weapons when dealing with the police.

Helmut-WK · Aug 28, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Uh you do not have a pass to disregard a police order. You also are required to put away or secure weapons when dealing with the police.

I did not say it was fully ok what he did. But he has no weapon. In another country, he surely would not have been shot.

Do you think he would have been shot if he were white?

Pavel Mosko · Aug 28, 2020

He had a knife. I don't know what kind of a knife it was, he was told to drop it. In US law, knives are classified as "lethal weapons" just as guns are because they can kill you if they cut or stab you in the right spot.

NotreDame · Aug 28, 2020

helmut said:
I only saw videos in German media, so maybe someone with more information may correct me.

I see a man (Blake) going to his car, followed by a policeman with a gun. I assume that the policemen did not force him to do so, so it looks that he stubbornly goes to his car, open the door, bows down ...

STOP. Think.

That is USA, a country were people can legally have weapons. The police must always reckon with the possibility that someones takes a weapon to shoot at them.

It seems to me the policeman feared Blake might grab a weapon, turn around and kill him. Blake was shot in a sort of panic.

This is not sure, and may even be proved wrong in the future. But this is the impression I got from looking on the video which showed the shooting.

No, this does not put the whole blame on Blake. There is some racism involved (would the policeman have reacted the same way if Blake were white?). And of course, the ease you can acquire a gun in Wisconsin.

Blake is not just a victim of racism, he also is a victim of his right to carry weapon. A right that has claimed more victims in Kenosha.

Is there racism involved? How exactly do you conclude racism played a role in the decision to shoot?

There are other supposed facts disclosed to the public. Such as an attempt to tase the suspect as he was moving towards and/trying to enter his vehicle. Other information is the suspect had an officer in a headlock before moving to his vehicle and attempting to enter.

The totality of these facts do not ineluctably suggest racism.

Sanoy · Aug 29, 2020

Yeah, there was a knife on the floor board of the car where he was shot and the guy who filmed the video said he heard the cops yell "put down the knife, put down the knife" before he was shot. So I don't think there is any evidence to suggest he was shot because of the color of his skin. The cops were also informed he had a warrant for his arrest, so they were arresting him, he fought with them and escaped arrest, at some point he was tased, which appears to never work, and still he marched toward the car door. Some say video show him with a curved knife in his hands on the way to the car, but it's too grainy to tell. We won't know the real story till the investigation is complete.

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
He had a knife. I don't know what kind of a knife it was, he was told to drop it. In US law, knives are classified as "lethal weapons" just as guns are because they can kill you if they cut or stab you in the right spot.

Yes, knives are considered lethal weapons, having looked into knife law years ago. There have been plenty of incidents where a guy with a gun was killed by a guy with a knife, or even a broken beer bottle.

But, I don't think it looks too good for the police to shoot a guy with a knife in the back. It would be more understandable if he were approaching the police armed with a knife.

Pommer · Aug 29, 2020

Sanoy said:
Some say video show him with a curved knife in his hands on the way to the car, but it's too grainy to tell.

To my eye, the object was a car key fob.

Pavel Mosko · Aug 29, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Yes, knives are considered lethal weapons, having looked into knife law years ago. There have been plenty of incidents where a guy with a gun was killed by a guy with a knife, or even a broken beer bottle.

But, I don't think it looks too good for the police to shoot a guy with a knife in the back. It would be more understandable if he were approaching the police armed with a knife.

It doesn't but from listening to the case yesterday on Youtube the guy, he was shot because he made it to his car, and was reaching in....... The fact he was disregarding orders etc. puts them on edge. Not knowing where his hands are going put's them on edge. Does he have a gun in this car......?

I also believe the police tried to taser him, before he made it too the car....

Anyway while the police may have jumped the gun... pardon the pun. Things are far away from a racist based shooting. I also watched the raw George Floyd footage yesterday, that is much different than what was reported. Boiling everything down to race is just dishonest. The people in these shooting are pretty wacked compared to what most people would do. Which would be to try to comply with all police orders promptly so as to not escalate the situation. Which is something to do just because it is largely in your own self interest.

It's interesting going back to the late 80s, I took a "Sociology and Law" class, and the professor talked about the difference between race/ethnicity and behavior to justify this sort of thing, talking about how "compliant" and "polite" middle class white kids are taught to be with the police, vs. certain black youths
from the inner city that have to talk back to the police etc. to prove that they are a man to their girl friend and friends in the car. It's really lame to have to justify people being this way because of their background, when nobody else would rationalize people being (bleep) holes in other situations. Not to mention, in the long run this just bad for the individual and the society. Why is it acceptable for certain folks to push and test cops and other folks to their limit?

Arc F1 · Aug 29, 2020

helmut said:
I only saw videos in German media, so maybe someone with more information may correct me.

I see a man (Blake) going to his car, followed by a policeman with a gun. I assume that the policemen did not force him to do so, so it looks that he stubbornly goes to his car, open the door, bows down ...

STOP. Think.

That is USA, a country were people can legally have weapons. The police must always reckon with the possibility that someones takes a weapon to shoot at them.

It seems to me the policeman feared Blake might grab a weapon, turn around and kill him. Blake was shot in a sort of panic.

This is not sure, and may even be proved wrong in the future. But this is the impression I got from looking on the video which showed the shooting.

No, this does not put the whole blame on Blake. There is some racism involved (would the policeman have reacted the same way if Blake were white?). And of course, the ease you can acquire a gun in Wisconsin.

Blake is not just a victim of racism, he also is a victim of his right to carry weapon. A right that has claimed more victims in Kenosha.

White people get shot and killed by police for behaving badly. I didn't see any racism in any of what happened.

Pommer · Aug 29, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Why is it acceptable for certain folks to push and test cops and other folks to their limit?

Obviously it isn’t acceptable, they shot him SEVEN TIMES!

Pavel Mosko · Aug 29, 2020

Pommer said:
Obviously it isn’t acceptable, they shot him SEVEN TIMES!

Well seven is the number of perfection in the Bible...... Is it to soon for gallows humor....?

Pommer · Aug 29, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
It doesn't but from listening to the case yesterday on Youtube the guy, he was shot because he made it to his car, and was reaching in....... The fact he was disregarding orders etc. puts them on edge. Not knowing where his hands are going put's them on edge. Does he have a gun in this car......?

I also believe the police tried to taser him, before he made it too the car....

Anyway while the police may have jumped the gun... pardon the pun. Things are far away from a racist based shooting. I also watched the raw George Floyd footage yesterday, that is much different than what was reported. Boiling everything down to race is just dishonest. The people in these shooting are pretty wacked compared to what most people would do. Which would be to try to comply with all police orders promptly so as to not escalate the situation. Which is something to do just because it is largely in your own self interest.

It's interesting going back to the late 80s, I took a "Sociology and Law" class, and the professor talked about the difference between race/ethnicity and behavior to justify this sort of thing, talking about how "compliant" and "polite" middle class white kids are taught to be with the police, vs. certain black youths
from the inner city that have to talk back to the police etc. to prove that they are a man to their girl friend and friends in the car. It's really lame to have to justify people being this way because of their background, when nobody else would rationalize people being (bleep) holes in other situations. Not to mention, in the long run this just bad for the individual and the society. Why is it acceptable for certain folks to push and test cops and other folks to their limit?

Maybe they weren’t listening when their folks gave them “the talk”?

Pavel Mosko · Aug 29, 2020

lol yeah, I'm sure the crime concentration in the inner city has nothing to do with it...

Albion · Aug 29, 2020

helmut said:
I see a man (Blake) going to his car, followed by a policeman with a gun. I assume that the policemen did not force him to do so, so it looks that he stubbornly goes to his car, open the door, bows down ...

STOP. Think.

That is USA, a country were people can legally have weapons....It seems to me the policeman feared Blake might grab a weapon, turn around and kill him. Blake was shot in a sort of panic.

Blake apparently was reaching for a weapon at that very time.

Police Recover Weapon From Vehicle Of WI Shooting Victim Jacob Blake

JohnDB · Aug 29, 2020

helmut said:
That is USA, a country were people can legally have weapons. The police must always reckon with the possibility that someones takes a weapon to shoot at them.

It seems to me the policeman feared Blake might grab a weapon, turn around and kill him. Blake was shot in a sort of panic.

Blake was guilty of felonious rape and resisting arrest. Meaning that he couldn't legally possess a firearm...but often that doesn't stop felons from obtaining one by illegal means. (And usually resulting in extra charges when they do)

He was going to get in further trouble no matter what. The officers were called out on him specifically for his theft of keys from a former girlfriend.

The whole time he was on his way to his vehicle he was stating he was going to get a knife...(cleaned up explanation of what he really said) and he obviously said why he was getting it. (With his warrants, including "resisting arrest", he wasn't going to get back out on any sort of bail)

He knew he was going away for years right then and there and was planning on a "last stand" and "live or die" situation.
His getting shot was almost a certainty.

Many officers don't carry batons any longer because of the Rodney King video from years back. They certainly could have used one here. The tazer failed... nothing left to use but his firearm...

When in a charged situation as this...most people do continue to pull the trigger until the perp is down...they don't stop even though the gun is a semi-automatic.... practically almost fully auto.
(Light pull)
Which is likely in this case.

essentialsaltes · Aug 29, 2020

Albion said:
Blake apparently was reaching for a weapon at that very time.

That's impossible to know.

Pavel Mosko · Aug 29, 2020

So in other words folks are accusing cops of being racist for defending themselves from a perp with a criminal history who was bent on doing suicide by cop.

wing2000 · Aug 29, 2020

helmut said:
Blake is not just a victim of racism, he also is a victim of his right to carry weapon. A right that has claimed more victims in Kenosha.

Due to the prevalence of firearms in America, our police are more likely to encounter armed resistance. The fear that a person may be going for a gnn ultimately results in many fatal shootings. The right to carry a weapon, however, will not change in America. What is needed. imo, is an overhaul of how such incidents are evaluated and individuals are held accountable for their actions. Today, many Americans feel (with good reason in some cases) that police are not being held accountable...and that is a problem.

A_Thinker · Aug 29, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Well seven is the number of perfection in the Bible...... Is it to soon for gallows humor....?

Not for you ...

Another view at Kenosha

Member

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Member

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Domer

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Let the righteous man arise from slumber

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

Facilitator

Regular Member

Fact-Based Lifeform

Arch-Dude of the Apostolic

E pluribus unum

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency