Another thing I don't understand about the creationist position...

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Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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No. You are being asked that if God told you that you misunderstood whether you would change. The Bible does NOT say that Genesis is to be taken literally. That is your understanding and it is NOT the understanding of other Christians.

The question is "Could you be wrong?" Well, can you?


You are being asked to question your understanding of what your god told you.


What you have done is made your own understanding a golden calf.
No for a day is still a day God did not change the span of time and then decide later after your evolutionary nonsense to make a day 24 hrs with day and night. Unless you believe that the earth rotated at a lot slower rate back in your theory. So no I am not wrong I will believe the Creator over the creation. I do not worship creation therefore it is not my golden calf as you put it I worship The God that uses the foolish things to confound the "wise". I do not question God do you? So where does literal Bible start? Is it just those parts you choose as literal that are true the rest are all metaphors left for you to decide? Is the death and resurrection of Jesus a metaphor? Is heaven a metaphor? Hell? Where do you start taking the Word at its Word? The reason for all the different denominations and cults is do t the fact that Certainly God did not say or surely He did not mean....... Just as it was in the garden at the fall man still wants to listen to satan and question God's Word. Funny how nothing changes.
 
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Hans Blaster

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No for a day is still a day God did not change the span of time and then decide later after your evolutionary nonsense to make a day 24 hrs with day and night. Unless you believe that the earth rotated at a lot slower rate back in your theory. So no I am not wrong I will believe the Creator over the creation. I do not worship creation therefore it is not my golden calf as you put it I worship The God that uses the foolish things to confound the "wise". I do not question God do you? So where does literal Bible start? Is it just those parts you choose as literal that are true the rest are all metaphors left for you to decide? Is the death and resurrection of Jesus a metaphor? Is heaven a metaphor? Hell? Where do you start taking the Word at its Word? The reason for all the different denominations and cults is do t the fact that Certainly God did not say or surely He did not mean....... Just as it was in the garden at the fall man still wants to listen to satan and question God's Word. Funny how nothing changes.

Our "evolutionary nonsense" doesn't care about your theology, or the interpretation of your creation story. (The thread is actually about seeming contradictions in how creationists interpret evidence.)
 
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AV1611VET

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(The thread is actually about seeming contradictions in how creationists interpret evidence.)

Well here's my interpretation of the evidence:

There ain't none.
 
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Bradskii

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Yes, I guess if you would be contrary to The Word. As the Word states let God be True and every man a liar. Romans 3:4
God does not change He is the same yesterday today and forever. So for Him to say one thing to you and another to someone else means He changed His mind or venue
God changes His mind?
 
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Tinker Grey

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No for a day is still a day God did not change the span of time and then decide later after your evolutionary nonsense to make a day 24 hrs with day and night. Unless you believe that the earth rotated at a lot slower rate back in your theory. So no I am not wrong I will believe the Creator over the creation. I do not worship creation therefore it is not my golden calf as you put it I worship The God that uses the foolish things to confound the "wise". I do not question God do you? So where does literal Bible start? Is it just those parts you choose as literal that are true the rest are all metaphors left for you to decide? Is the death and resurrection of Jesus a metaphor? Is heaven a metaphor? Hell? Where do you start taking the Word at its Word? The reason for all the different denominations and cults is do t the fact that Certainly God did not say or surely He did not mean....... Just as it was in the garden at the fall man still wants to listen to satan and question God's Word. Funny how nothing changes.
You didn't understand a thing I said. And, that says something about the value of your interpretation.
 
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ruthiesea

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No for a day is still a day God did not change the span of time and then decide later after your evolutionary nonsense to make a day 24 hrs with day and night. Unless you believe that the earth rotated at a lot slower rate back in your theory. So no I am not wrong I will believe the Creator over the creation. I do not worship creation therefore it is not my golden calf as you put it I worship The God that uses the foolish things to confound the "wise". I do not question God do you? So where does literal Bible start? Is it just those parts you choose as literal that are true the rest are all metaphors left for you to decide? Is the death and resurrection of Jesus a metaphor? Is heaven a metaphor? Hell? Where do you start taking the Word at its Word? The reason for all the different denominations and cults is do t the fact that Certainly God did not say or surely He did not mean....... Just as it was in the garden at the fall man still wants to listen to satan and question God's Word. Funny how nothing changes.
How was the Length of a day determined before the sun was created?
 
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Hans Blaster

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How was the Length of a day determined before the sun was created?

Irrelevant. The Sun was there first. It is the rotation rate of the Earth that determines the length of the day.
 
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Frank Robert

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No for a day is still a day God did not change the span of time and then decide later after your evolutionary nonsense to make a day 24 hrs with day and night.
For informational purposes:
Does the Bible Affirm Young-Earth Creationism? | Reasons to Believe
Ever since the well-publicized Scopes Trial in 1925, evangelical Christians have engaged in vigorous, often heated debates over the age of the universe and Earth. On one side are Christians who are convinced that there is overwhelming, consistent, accurate scientific evidence that the universe is 13.79 billion years old and that Earth is 4.5662 billion years old. On the other side are Christians who are convinced that a literal interpretation of the Bible constrains both the age of the universe and Earth to be less than 10,000 years.​
The four most significant factors persuading many Christians that the universe and Earth must be younger than 10,000 years old are:​
1. concern that conceding a 4.5662-billion-year age for Earth will enable naturalistic evolutionary processes alone to explain the origin and history of all life;​
2. certainty that the only possible literal interpretation of Genesis 1 is that in which the creation days are six consecutive 24-hour periods;​
3. belief that there was no animal or human death until after Adam had sinned in the Garden of Eden; and​
4. belief that an atheistic bias explains the scientific community’s united-front conclusion that Earth and the universe are billions of years old.​
 
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Diamond7

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No for a day is still a day God did not change the span of time and then decide later after your evolutionary nonsense to make a day 24 hrs with day and night.
No two days are the exact same length. Right now a day is approximately 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.

In Orthodox Judaism each day is a microcosm of the entire universe and contains within it all of the secrets and mysteries of creation.
 
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Diamond7

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You didn't understand a thing I said. And, that says something about the value of your interpretation.
The earth rotated faster. Even some say the first day was 6 hours. The moon and the ocean are slowing down the earth. So days are getting longer.
 
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Belteshazzar(Daniel)

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Our "evolutionary nonsense" doesn't care about your theology, or the interpretation of your creation story. (The thread is actually about seeming contradictions in how creationists interpret evidence.)
And just for your information I do not care about your man made scientific theory and the intellect of individuals who cannot take God at His Word. Tell me should I believe the clay or the One Who formed it? Do you know exactly how the universe was created or is it theory? Do you know without any doubt that carbon dating is exact science and has never evolved since time began? What evidence do you have outside of theory? No man knows how life began.
 
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Frank Robert

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And just for your information I do not care about your man made scientific theory and the intellect of individuals who cannot take God at His Word. Tell me should I believe the clay or the One Who formed it? Do you know exactly how the universe was created or is it theory? Do you know without any doubt that carbon dating is exact science and has never evolved since time began? What evidence do you have outside of theory? No man knows how life began.
You can not know for certain what you believe actually took place in the way you believe.

What you are proclaiming is an apologetic for a literal bible which a majority of Christians do not share. I would not argue that your belief is incorrect just as I would not argue that the Hindu, or the Islamic or the Jewish beliefs are incorrect. However, I do think the evidence for a natural universe whether or not created by a deity is overwhelming. You can call it belief, a theory or anything else that you like but when you do keep in mind that it is a belief that can change with new information that firmly contradicts it.
 
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Mountainmike

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When you figure out a way to examine the supernatural events in the bible, such created kinds, with the scientific method let the rest of us know.
To which one answer is..

”When you figure out a way to examine an event you claim happened billions of years ago, with no evidence of when , where , what, or how it happened , nor any of the assumed unevidenced and undefined evolutonary cell development journey after that, or before it, with the scientific method , let the rest of us know….”

Yet you tell us it’s not only a theory , which it isn’t, but it’s the strongest Theory.
( Which proves you don’t know what a theory is, or the scientific method, but let that pass)

The real question is how can you have such double standards?

Thats the problem with Carl Sagan’s/ Dawkins folly.
Both had an attitude problem.
“Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence “
it’s the very antithesis of science.
Extraordinary is just an opinion.

It allows you to raise a subjective barrier against anything you don’t “like”
but you lower the barrier to accept on trust anything you do “like” . Like abiogenesis.
 
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Frank Robert

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To which one answer is..

”When you figure out a way to examine an event you claim happened billions of years ago, with no evidence of when , where , what, or how it happened , nor any of the assumed unevidenced and undefined evolutonary cell development journey after that, or before it, with the scientific method , let the rest of us know….”

Yet you tell us it’s not only a theory , which it isn’t, but it’s the strongest Theory.
( Which proves you don’t know what a theory is, or the scientific method, but let that pass)

The real question is how can you have such double standards?

Thats the problem with Carl Sagan’s/ Dawkins folly.
Both had an attitude problem.
“Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence “
it’s the very antithesis of science.
Extraordinary is just an opinion.

It allows you to raise a subjective barrier against anything you don’t “like”
but you lower the barrier to accept on trust anything you do “like” . Like abiogenesis.
All you can do is deny the evidence from hundreds experiments and hypotheses. You have yet to produce a hypothesis on your version of creation. When you can we will be delighted to entertain it. As I used to tell my patients denial is not a river in Egypt.
 
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Mountainmike

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All you can do is deny the evidence from hundreds experiments and hypotheses. You have yet to produce a hypothesis on your version of creation. When you can we will be delighted to entertain it. As I used to tell my patients denial is not a river in Egypt.
But you have no evidence of what happened, even if it did happen At all.
And you have no hypothesis for a process that starts with non living and ends in living.
So you have no hypothesis for abiogenesis, becausr that’s what abiogenesis means.
All you have is speculation on bits of a Process which may or may not have happened. And May or may not be something to do with it.


You misunderstand science. It is not at all what you think.
it doesn’t surprise me that you are not in any way or shape scientist And you don’t think like one.

As Einstein said it starts and finishes with experience.
Patterns in evidence exist that are scientifically analysed with no hypothesised mechanism ,
and in some cases no prospect of one. The pattern can be established never the less.

I can point out many verifiable test phenomena in your area of psychology which have no possibility of explanation at neurological level. But they repeat enough to use.

The shape of galaxies exists and is codified , despite the inability to explain matter imbalance Implied. Dark matter if it exists is pure speculation. It’s the name given to a modelling error!

The evidence is valid none the less.
I can only point out the laws just codify patterns , they do not “ explain” them in fundamental sense.

I spent a part of my career modelling patterns many whichhad no obvious hypothesis. But they repeated enough to use the pattern.

So there is far more scientific evidence for some of the phenomena I relate than there is for abiogenesis whose status is pure conjecture. My evidence is scientific, evidence of something that actually happened - , yours is pure conjecture About something you cannot say for sure even happened, when where or what.

I entered the thread because of your clear double standards on evidence Based only on the fact you “ like” some conclusions. You dislike others.
 
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Frank Robert

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But you have no evidence of what happened, even if it did happen At all.
And you have no hypothesis for a process that starts with non living and ends in living.
So you have no hypothesis for abiogenesis, becausr that’s what abiogenesis means.
All you have is speculation on bits of a Process which may or may not have happened. And May or may not be something to do with it.


You misunderstand science. It is not at all what you think.
it doesn’t surprise me that you are not in any way or shape scientist And you don’t think like one.

As Einstein said it starts and finishes with experience.
Patterns in evidence exist that are scientifically analysed with no hypothesised mechanism ,
and in some cases no prospect of one. The pattern can be established never the less.

I can point out many verifiable test phenomena in your area of psychology which have no possibility of explanation at neurological level. But they repeat enough to use.

The shape of galaxies exists and is codified , despite the inability to explain matter imbalance Implied. Dark matter if it exists is pure speculation. It’s the name given to a modelling error!

The evidence is valid none the less.
I can only point out the laws just codify patterns , they do not “ explain” them in fundamental sense.

I spent a part of my career modelling patterns many whichhad no obvious hypothesis. But they repeated enough to use the pattern.

So there is far more scientific evidence for some of the phenomena I relate than there is for abiogenesis whose status is pure conjecture. My evidence is scientific, evidence of something that actually happened - , yours is pure conjecture About something you cannot say for sure even happened, when where or what.

I entered the thread because of your clear double standards on evidence Based only on the fact you “ like” some conclusions. You dislike others.
TL DR past your first denial. You made multiple claim of your scientific acumen yet you have yet to provide a testable and repeatable hypothesis for your nonsense claims about abiogenesis. You deny science in which there have been multiple noble prizes and have made zero effort to support your claims. I don't know how you can claim to be a scientists if you are unable to provide some research support your denials.
See:
Undefining life's biochemistry: implications for abiogenesis | National Institute of Medicine
In the mid-twentieth century, multiple Nobel Prizes rewarded discoveries of a seemingly universal set of molecules and interactions that collectively defined the chemical basis for life....
We may never know everything but you are denying the multiple scientific experimentation and hypothese, some of which resulted in Nobel Prizes, for what we do know. Denial is a serious condition. Perhaps the Serinity Prayer could help you overcome your denial not because it is a Christian prayer but because it offers the common sense of what Jung referred to as higher education.
 
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Diamond7

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This is the length of the sidereal day, not the solar day.
Yes, there are two different ways to measure the length of a day. Also, no two days are the same length. Leap seconds were added on June 30, 2015, and December 31, 2016.
 
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Mountainmike

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TL DR past your first denial. You made multiple claim of your scientific acumen yet you have yet to provide a testable and repeatable hypothesis for your nonsense claims about abiogenesis. You deny science in which there have been multiple noble prizes and have made zero effort to support your claims. I don't know how you can claim to be a scientists if you are unable to provide some research support your denials.
See:
Undefining life's biochemistry: implications for abiogenesis | National Institute of Medicine
In the mid-twentieth century, multiple Nobel Prizes rewarded discoveries of a seemingly universal set of molecules and interactions that collectively defined the chemical basis for life....
We may never know everything but you are denying the multiple scientific experimentation and hypothese, some of which resulted in Nobel Prizes, for what we do know. Denial is a serious condition. Perhaps the Serinity Prayer could help you overcome your denial not because it is a Christian prayer but because it offers the common sense of what Jung referred to as higher education.
Go and learn some science, then Comment on science.
it is an utter disgrace you mislead people daily
On something you clearly know nothing about

Fir those who are interested in science ( unlike seemingly Frank.)

Science is messy. It does not have a single track.
Science starts with experience.
As Einstein noted.

First it studies experience.
Then comes noticing patterns
Then some are codified as experimental laws , which describe the patterns but do not account ( ie have an axiomatic model ) for them.

Many of the most well known laws are only that. Patterns : try boyles or ohms law Both of which are only accurate under restrictive conditions. They are not an axiomatic form. Nothibg that claims to be explanation
Are you claiming ohms law isnt science? It’s news to the rest of science!

In parallel with that is an axiomatic model.
Which models -some of it well,
-some of it badly,
- some of it not at all.
- some things contradict , other basic tenets of pthe model
And all shades in between
Theories live in the model not the world.

Just sometimes science starts with the model and extrapolates, so we have a model , but no experience of it.
Mostly we start with experience.

So in summary Using simple examples even Frank might understand,

For some things we have
1/ model and experience ( eg axiomatic model kinetic gas theory , experience boyles law)
2/ experience but no model, or that defies the model ( eg experience galaxy shape, but no model without a big error on mass)

3/ model but no experience ( we think we know how stars form, We have a model, but nobody witnessed it,
early stars are believed to emit little light, so astronomers look for things that MIGHT be indirect signs of star birth.

4/ conjecture with no experience or model. Only speculation.
It’s still valid science but way before hypothesis.

5/ one model that defies other precepts of the axiomatic model ( quantum effects defy many precepts of the normal model of existence so nobody can explain it, but the model is useful if You use it in the right places)
this conflict of models led to Hawkkings “ model dependent reality”

Science is messy, it is not your silly one track caricature.
most of it is trying to find patterns long before explanation.

I can tell you all sorts of behaviour that repeats in psychology , advertisers use it all the time but you will never explain it at neuron level. Not least because they are statistical nature and some subjects do the opposite!

Eucharistic miracles are 2/ evidence, no model
Which is way higher up the curve of proof than
Abiogenesus is 4/ which has no evidence or model

Many things cannot be repeated in a lab, and do not repeat frequently naturally. so. Study is hard

Your silly caricature of science comes from 8th grade not reality.
Real science is messy.

no hypotheses , or axiomatic model is ever proposed until a pattern is determined first .
You do not need a hypothesis to have an experimental law .
Some experience defies hypothesis In rational terms. Many quantum events.

So for the last time Stop misleading others Frank.

Stick to something you know. Pronounce on that instead.
so speaks someone who spent a decade modelling the physical world. Frank didn’t.
 
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