Another squeeze for your eschatological understanding.

[LovedofHim]

Therein lies one of your many fatal flaws in theology. There is nothing that states the first resurrection is in the millennial reign of Christ. Your own ignorant statement proves it!

Then I will speak to you in scripture and you can call God's statements "ignorant".

When does Christ's reign ON EARTH begin:

Rev 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If the church is raptured prior to the millennium, then the church has to make the first resurrection prior to the millennium.

The church is caught up when the devil is cast down, before the antichrist takes the stage.

The only people resurrected in the first resurrection are those who refuse to worship the devil or take the mark of the beast while the antichrist is here.

Rev 12:10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Scripture is very clear that the making of the first resurrection occurs at the time of death in the flesh. Since Abraham wasn't part of the rapture movement, he [according to you] would not be saved yet until the millennium. Yet, in Luke 16:22, one sees that Abraham has already made the first resurrection. He is not in hell.

Scripture is very clear that only those who die refusing to take the mark and worship the beast are resurrected in the first resurrection of the millennial reign of Christ.

See 1 Tim. 4:1. Rapture is Satan's Doctrine. No one can blaspheme a church -- 'church' is not deity.

What were you saying about "ignorant statements"?

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yes and no. Yes, Jesus was pierced. No, God has not destroyed the nations that come against Israel and poured out a spirit of supplication on them.

Zechariah 13 1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

John 4
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Revelation 21
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.



EDIT: By the way...

John 8
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Galatians 3
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[LovedofHim]

Zechariah 13 1In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

John 4
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Revelation 21
6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Speaking of the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, the New Covenant, is He not?


Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Zech 12:10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:

 

[LovedofHim]

EDIT: By the way...

John 8
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Galatians 3
16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I see that you have a problem with understanding/separating who is who.

There are believing Jews and unbelieving Jews. There are believing gentiles and unbelieving gentiles. There are even people who will not be ready when the great tribulation is cut short but then prove by their works that they belong to God during the time of wrath.

When Jesus condemned the Jews in that passage you quoted in John 8, was he condemning the disciples and Himself as well? NO! Obviously, he was condemning those in unbelief who were out to get him.

It's the same thing with the Catholic teaching that Jesus built the church on Peter. Jesus did not build the church on Peter. Jesus built the church on the fact that Jesus is the Christ (which is the correct answer that Peter gave) and the disciples were the foundation of it, the first to understand it.

I guess it's about "rightly dividing" the Word of God.

When the church is removed, a remnant of Israel is sealed and protected on earth from the devil (woman/144,000 of Israel).

 

[ivebeenshown]

Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Ephesians 1
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The mystery of God's will...

Revelation 10
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The mystery is finished when the seventh trumpet sounds... then it is time for wrath and judgment.

Revelation 20
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

 

[LovedofHim]

Ephesians 1
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The mystery of God's will...

Revelation 10
7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The mystery is finished when the seventh trumpet sounds... then it is time for wrath and judgment.

Revelation 20
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The mystery that was declared to the prophets that is made known at the time of the 7th seal is that Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He shall reign forever and ever.

Rev 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


And no, the wrath of God is poured out before the 7th trumpet. Jesus comes after the 7th trumpet to DESTROY, not to pour out wrath.

 

[ivebeenshown]

And no, the wrath of God is poured out before the 7th trumpet.

Are you saying the vials come before the seventh trumpet, somehow?

By the way, since the twenty-four elders say 'your wrath has come. the time has come for judging the dead', doesn't that place the seventh trumpet after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20? After all... in Revelation 20, after the 1,000 years God pours fire upon the assembled nations as he said he would in Zeph.3:8, and thereafter judges the dead.

 

[LovedofHim]

Are you saying the vials come before the seventh trumpet, somehow?

Yes. The 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are identical. After all, there is an army that forms in the 6th bowl that Jesus destroys when he comes on the clouds after the 7th trumpet.
The 7th seal
Trumpet 1
Trumpet 2
Trumpet 3
Trumpet 4
Trumpet 5
Trumpet 6
Bowls 1-7/trumpet 7

It is the same pattern as the marches that brought down Jericho.


13And seven priests bearing seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the LORD went on continually, and blew with the trumpets: and the armed men went before them; but the rereward came after the ark of the LORD, the priests going on, and blowing with the trumpets.
14And the second day they compassed the city once, and returned into the camp: so they did six days.
15And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they rose early about the dawning of the day, and compassed the city after the same manner seven times: only on that day they compassed the city seven times. 16And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.


Joshua's march around Jericho
Day 1 - march around city, blowing trumpets
Day 2 - march around city, blowing trumpets
Day 3 - march around city, blowing trumpets
Day 4 - march around city, blowing trumpets
Day 5 - march around city, blowing trumpets
Day 6 - march around city, blowing trumpets
Day 7 - march around 7 times, then blow trumpets and shout!

By the way, since the twenty-four elders say 'your wrath has come. the time has come for judging the dead', doesn't that place the seventh trumpet after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20?

After all... in Revelation 20, after the 1,000 years God pours fire upon the assembled nations as he said he would in Zeph.3:8, and thereafter judges the dead.

The judgment of the dead takes place during the reign of Christ. The dead are raised and judged.

 

[ivebeenshown]

The judgment of the dead takes place during the reign of Christ. The dead are raised and judged.

According to Revelation 20, it takes place after the 1,000 years. And according to Revelation 11, it takes place after the seventh trumpet sounds.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It is the same pattern as the marches that brought down Jericho.

Just because there are numerical similarities between Jericho and the trumpets/vials does not mean they share the same pattern.

In fact Revelation says this:

Revelation 8
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15
5And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Seventh seal opens, then angels given trumpets, then seventh trumpet finally sounds, then temple of the tabernacle of testimony opens, then angels come out of temple with vials.

 

[LovedofHim]

According to Revelation 20, it takes place after the 1,000 years. And according to Revelation 11, it takes place after the seventh trumpet sounds.

ONE of them does take place after the 7th trumpet and one of them takes place after the millenium.

 

[LovedofHim]

Just because there are numerical similarities between Jericho and the trumpets/vials does not mean they share the same pattern.

In fact Revelation says this:

Revelation 8
1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Revelation 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15
5And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Seventh seal opens, then angels given trumpets, then seventh trumpet finally sounds, then temple of the tabernacle of testimony opens, then angels come out of temple with vials.

Ivebeenshown, there's an army that forms in the 6th bowl/vial.

Jesus destroys that army as He comes on the clouds to destroy after the 7th trumpet.

The bowls come before the 7th trumpet. The bowls come between the 6th and 7th trumpets.


Rev 16:12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Ivebeenshown, there's an army that forms in the 6th bowl/vial.

Jesus destroys that army as He comes on the clouds to destroy after the 7th trumpet.

The bowls come before the 7th trumpet.

Sorry, but I see nothing in Revelation 11 that forces the bowls to come before the seventh trumpet. Though all of the verses I posted lead me to believe that it goes Seals -> Trumpets -> Vials.

 

[LovedofHim]

Sorry, but I see nothing in Revelation 11 that forces the bowls to come before the seventh trumpet. Though all of the verses I posted lead me to believe that it goes Seals -> Trumpets -> Vials.

Do you or do you not see what Jesus said about his coming in the 6th bowl?

12And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.



Do you or do you not see that the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl are the same thing?

Rev 11:15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.



Rev 16: 17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Think about it. When Jesus comes on the clouds to destroy, he's coming to destroy an army.

The army forms in the 6th bowl.

The 7th bowl is earthquake, thunder, lightning, voices, great hail, and "it is done".

The 7th trumpet is earthquake, thunder, lightning, voices, great hail, and "it is finished - the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our God".

But in your scenario, there is earthquake, thunder, lightning, voices, great hail and "the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our God" BUT then the kingdom of the beast is struck with sores, darkness, waters to blood, the gathering of armies FOLLOWED BY yet another set of earthquake, thunder, lightning, voices, great hail, and "it is done" and then Christ comes on the clouds to destroy.

Biblically, after the two witnesses have been killed and raptured, the kingdom of the beast is struck with sores, watere to blood, darkness, gathering of armies, followed by earthquake, thunder, lightning, voices, great hail and "it is done"/"the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdom of God" and then Christ comes on the clouds to destroy that army.

 

[ivebeenshown]

ONE of them does take place after the 7th trumpet and one of them takes place after the millenium.

The only 'judgment of the dead' that occurs in Revelation 20 is after the 1,000.

 

[LovedofHim]

The only 'judgment of the dead' that occurs in Revelation 20 is after the 1,000.

What do you think is going on here:


Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[ivebeenshown]

What do you think is going on here:

Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Well, I don't see any judgment of the dead. I see souls being given the authority to judge.

 

[LovedofHim]

Well, I don't see any judgment of the dead. I see souls being given the authority to judge.

No, the church judges.

You see souls BEING judged.

Unless, of course, you think dead people are given the reward of eternal life without being judged.

 

[LovedofHim]

You missed the point. It was a "gotcha" moment. You last argued that the first resurrection does not begin until the millennial reign of Christ. Then, you argue that the church is raptured before the millennial reign of Christ.

The dichotomy of your positions contradict each other. Assuming arguendo that there is a raptured church before the millenial reign of Christ, then the first resurrection for that raptured church takes place before the millenial reign of Christ.

The point being, you are in error in claiming that the first resurrection takes place in the millennial reign of Christ. For those that have already died, the ones that passed the test [according to Rev. 20:4] have already made the first resurrection.

Those 'saints' are those that Christ brings with him [1 Thes. 4:16-17] at the 7th trumpet.

The glorified church judges the dead.
CHURCH:

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

VERY SPECIFIC DEAD:

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


I thought you said you believed only the two witnesses are killed by the devil and yet who are those people who died refusing to worship the beast?

There is no rapture -- have proven your error so many times already.

You can repeat it until Christ comes and raptures you, nothing will make your words true. You might as well be saying "there is no sun in the sky".

 

[ivebeenshown]

Okay, well, I'm officially back to not caring. Jesus is our savior; the rest of this discussion is just sweat over the small stuff