Another squeeze for your eschatological understanding.

[ivebeenshown]

The great tribulation that began with the desolation of Israel (wars, famine, plagues, pestilence, persecution, martyrdom, captivity) is what is cut short for the sake of the elect. Joel 2 describes why it is cut short or else no one would survive.

I didn't ask why it is cut short, I asked what 'cutting short' entails.

 

[LovedofHim]

I didn't ask why it is cut short, I asked what 'cutting short' entails.

It's the moment when God steps in for the sake of the elect or else no one would survive.

Joel 2:

15Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

18Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

It's the moment when God is fed up, jealous for his land and people, and wrath is about to begin.


Ezek 38: 18And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. 19For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

 

[Watchman_2]

The tribulation time was 'cut short' to 5 months. See Rev. 9:5.

 

[LovedofHim]

The tribulation time was 'cut short' to 5 months. See Rev. 9:5.

Thank you for adding your Shepherd's Chapel false teaching.

No, the antichrist is not here during the tribulation, he is here during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord which begns after the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect.

Daniel 11:36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place.



Matt 24: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.\

Jesus said that the tribulation ends before the 6th seal. Your description of the 5 months in Rev 9 is during the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal, Day of the Lord/wrath.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[josephearl]

It is difficult to enter into a thread this long as one takes the risk of repeating something previously dealt with but here we go anyway. I think in any discussion on the Olivet Discourse it is necessary to define precisely what is meant by the term 'great tribulation." If I recall correctly the term great is derived from the Greek word mega and in these passages is not used prior to the onset of the abomination of desolation. Thus great tribulation does not occur until the second half of the 7 year period often refered to as the Great Tribulation period. I would be suprised if this has not been mentioned several times already.
The part that I find interesting is verse 24:29 and its use of the words 'immediately after" that almost seems to say that the tribualtion will cease. I am assuming that the signs in the heavens are so stunning that it casuses all to stop their activities however I do plan on pondering this more.

““Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29, NAB)

 

[LovedofHim]

It is difficult to enter into a thread this long as one takes the risk of repeating something previously dealt with but here we go anyway. I think in any discussion on the Olivet Discourse it is necessary to define precisely what is meant by the term 'great tribulation." If I recall correctly the term great is derived from the Greek word mega and in these passages is not used prior to the onset of the abomination of desolation. Thus great tribulation does not occur until the second half of the 7 year period often refered to as the Great Tribulation period. I would be suprised if this has not been mentioned several times already.
The part that I find interesting is verse 24:29 and its use of the words 'immediately after" that almost seems to say that the tribualtion will cease. I am assuming that the signs in the heavens are so stunning that it casuses all to stop their activities however I do plan on pondering this more.

““Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29, NAB)

Pay VERY close attention to Jesus' words:


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
...
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

When does JESUS say the tribulation began? verse 15

What arises after the great tribulation is cut short? verse 23,24

What happens IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation? verse 29

Is there a moment when the sun and moon darken and the stars fall in Revelation? See the 6th seal of Rev 6 and Joel 2

What happens after the 6th seal?

 

[Watchman_2]

Thank you for adding your Shepherd's Chapel false teaching.

Since when was Rev. 9:5 not part of the Bible??

No, the antichrist is not here during the tribulation, he is here during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord which begns after the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect.

Well, as usual, you are clueless! As has been shown to you a few times in this topic, the great tribulation [for God's elect] IS the time of Satan and his angels.

Satan is here pretending to be Christ during the last half of the great tribulation. Christ returns thereafter. See 2 Thes. 2:2-4.

Jesus said that the tribulation ends before the 6th seal. Your description of the 5 months in Rev 9 is during the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal, Day of the Lord/wrath.

The seals are not given in chronological order. See the topic that I started entitled as such. The 6th listed seal is the 7th seal in time.

 

[B1inHim]

I could only guess who that 1 person is that voted on the first option.

Matthew 24: 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

EVERYTHING from the falling away to the AC being revealed to the cutting short of the Tribulation happens BEFORE this.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

There are ten children of God, five were wise and spent time in prayer, fasting and getting closer to God.

Five were foolish and spent time trying to change the events that are written in the Word to endorse their own beliefs. They caused great commotion among the others and spent countless hours saying the same thing over and over even though they were shown to be made known in the wrong by MANY different people from many different backgrounds.


One night there was a call that the Bridegroom was coming. Now the foolish children did not believe that it was the Bridegroom because they believed in something else. So they all went out to have a Starbucks.

Meanwhile the five wise children who were always fasting, praying and getting closer to God went off to a magnificent supper.

One of the wise children twittered about what they were doing and one of the foolish children read it.

Finally when the foolish ones arrived they knocked on the door.

The Bridegroom cracked open the door and said, "what do you want?"

They said that they was having coffee and believed that they were supposed to be in there with Him but He said, "Go away, I do not even know you..."

"Yeah but we prophesied in Your name and cast out demons and all sorts of really religious stuff for You."

And as He was closing the door shut He replied...


21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”


Love,
[FONT=&quot]Brother Jerry[/FONT]

 

[josephearl]

I think your thoughts on the AC do not hold water.

No, the antichrist is not here during the tribulation, he is here during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord which begns after the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect.

The AC is said to sign a covenant of death with Israel and it is that which begins the final 7 year countdown.

““And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” ” (Daniel 9:27, NASB95)


Prior to this it would be necessary for him to first overthrow the three little horns and that would brings into play the matter of him first rising to power in one nation. That will not be something that occurs in a moment IMHO.


“‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. ” (Daniel 7:24, NASB95)

The next verse describes the time after the midpoint of the 7 year period.

“‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. ” (Daniel 7:25, NASB95)

 

[LovedofHim]

Since when was Rev. 9:5 not part of the Bible??



Well, as usual, you are clueless! As has been shown to you a few times in this topic, the great tribulation [for God's elect] IS the time of Satan and his angels.

Satan is here pretending to be Christ during the last half of the great tribulation. Christ returns thereafter. See 2 Thes. 2:2-4.

Jesus Himself proves you wrong:



21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

The seals are not given in chronological order. See the topic that I started entitled as such. The 6th listed seal is the 7th seal in time.

Yes, they are in chronological order. After war comes famine, after famine comes death by wild beasts and pestilence.
When the white robes are given, that's when the great tribulation is over as Jesus said immediately after the great tribulation comes the 6th seal.
The elect church is standing in heaven wearing white robes given in the 5th seal having come out of great tribulation that Jesus said ends before the 6th seal.
The elect of Israel are seen sealed and protected by God before the Day of the Lord begins in the 7th seal.
The antichrist is seen given a key (authority) in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord and is shown as unable to touch the elect of Israel.
It is indeed chronological which is why God numbered them as such.

 

[LovedofHim]

I think your thoughts on the AC do not hold water.
The AC is said to sign a covenant of death with Israel and it is that which begins the final 7 year countdown.
““And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” ” (Daniel 9:27, NASB95)

How is it that people can confuse the New Covenant with some fanciful "covenant of death" and not even recognize when their own Savior is mentioned in Scripture?

Jesus confirmed the NEW Covenant with many during his 3 1/2 year mnistry while he was here. In the middle of the week Jesus put an end to sacrifices with His death.

Everywhere the "prince" is mentioned in Daniel 9, it refers to Jesus, our Savior.


Romans 11: 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Mat 26:28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.Mar 14:24"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.


God protects the remnant of Israel for 3 1/2 years during the 42 months when the devil is on earth, confirming the covenant for the last half of the final week of Daniels 70 weeks.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

 

[josephearl]

““But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ” (Matthew 24:29, NASB95)

It still looks to me like the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red and the stars falling from heaven is such an event that all the entities (human and non-human) destroying the body of Christ cease their actions. This is perhaps the moment when they cry out for the mountains to fall on them as they attempt to escape the eyes of the Lord.

 

[son_flower]

I cannot believe this is so difficult for people to see - either it's willful ignorance, blindness, or a blatant refusal to accept the very words of Jesus!

It's stunning!


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (why, Jesus, Why should we "believe it not" when they say "here is the Christ or there" at the time when the tribulation is cut short?)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

Its really not difficult at at all.

He is saying the reason for the cutting short right after your blue:

Like this:

Then(during those days i just repeatedly told u about), then(again i just told you about them) then(one more time then in those days when it gets so bad i have to cut them short because there is so many liars)then (in those days) if they say to you here I am, dont believe it.

Then dont listen then For(because)there shall arise many false christs in those days i just warned you about 3 times in the other verses)THEN(during those horrible days) dont believe them then for there is many who try and steal you. THEN, when the trib is going on,(in those days that get bad) then (in those days that are shortened because so many false christs come and try to decieve you) THEN, dont beleive them.

 

[LovedofHim]

““But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ” (Matthew 24:29, NASB95)

It still looks to me like the sun going dark, the moon turning blood red and the stars falling from heaven is such an event that all the entities (human and non-human) destroying the body of Christ cease their actions. This is perhaps the moment when they cry out for the mountains to fall on them as they attempt to escape the eyes of the Lord.

Yes, because the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord is about to begin which is the entire 7th seal.


12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Watchman_2]

Jesus Himself proves you wrong:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Yeah, Jesus shortened those days down to 5 months. See Rev. 9:5

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

Many have attempted to educate you about the word rendered as 'then'. Apparently, you are unedifiable. It means 'at this time'.

Yes, they are in chronological order. After war comes famine, after famine comes death by wild beasts and pestilence.

When the white robes are given, that's when the great tribulation is over as Jesus said immediately after the great tribulation comes the 6th seal.
The elect church is standing in heaven wearing white robes given in the 5th seal having come out of great tribulation that Jesus said ends before the 6th seal.
The elect of Israel are seen sealed and protected by God before the Day of the Lord begins in the 7th seal.
The antichrist is seen given a key (authority) in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord and is shown as unable to touch the elect of Israel.
It is indeed chronological which is why God numbered them as such.

I already proved you wrong in the other topic. Those saints that have been martyred for the name of Christ are not in a hole in the ground waiting for Christ's return. They are already judged as 'saved', have received their white robes, and are located on the Abrahamic side of the gulf [Luke 16].

The 7th listed seal is the 5th seal in time. It is listed last for the purpose of letting real Christians know that the trumpets commence thereafter this fifth seal in time.

 

[LovedofHim]

Its really not difficult at at all.

He is saying the reason for the cutting short right after your blue:

Like this:

Then(during those days i just repeatedly told u about), then(again i just told you about them) then(one more time then in those days when it gets so bad i have to cut them short because there is so many liars)then (in those days) if they say to you here I am, dont believe it.

Then dont listen then For(because)there shall arise many false christs in those days i just warned you about 3 times in the other verses)THEN(during those horrible days) dont believe them then for there is many who try and steal you. THEN, when the trib is going on,(in those days that get bad) then (in those days that are shortened because so many false christs come and try to decieve you) THEN, dont beleive them.

You are correct that it is simple. I can simplify it even more.

Tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect and then the antichrist/false prophet and their false miracles arise.

This is why the antichrist is blaspheming "heaven dwellers" (the elect church) when he gets his 42 months in Revelation 13.

This is why white robed (white robes given in 5th seal) multitudes are standing in heaven, having come out of great tribulation (ends before 6th seal) before the 7th seal time of wrath on the Day of the Lord begins.

This is why the antichrist can't touch the elect remnant of Israel in Revelation 9. They are gathered, sealed, and protected "from the face of the serpent" for 42 months, according to Rev 7 & 12.

 

[LovedofHim]

Yeah, Jesus shortened those days down to 5 months. See Rev. 9:5

IT says no such thing. In fact, it shows that the elect of Israel can't be touched during that time when the antichrist is making war and wreaking havoc:

Revelation 9

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. 5And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Besides that, Jesus said the 6th seal occurs immediately after the tribulation in Matt 24:29.

Many have attempted to educate you about the word rendered as 'then'. Apparently, you are unedifiable. It means 'at this time'.

I agree. 'Then" means "at that time". At the time when the tribulation is cut short, the antichrist arises. That's what it says. I believe it.

 

[Watchman_2]

[/size]
IT says no such thing. In fact, it shows that the elect of Israel can't be touched during that time when the antichrist is making war and wreaking havoc:

Of course the elect are protected during that time! That's exactly why the tribulation was shortened to 5 months. Christ's mission was to not lose any of the elect [Joh. 6:39]. If the tribulation of the Antichrist [and his angels] lasted 42 months as originally planned, there would be a greater possibility for the elect to cave into the one-world economy run by the 10 kings.

I agree. 'Then" means "at that time". At the time when the tribulation is cut short, the antichrist arises. That's what it says. I believe it.

If you agree, then why do you keep claiming 'then' means 'after'??

The entire tribulation is shortened. That includes the time of Satan's reign, in which God's elect cannot be harmed.

It will be rapturists, and other non-elect, duped Christians who will be delivering up real Christians to Satan's councils for trial. Even Satan is prevented from harming God's elect.

Satan's reign is most definitely part of the great tribulation.

 

[LovedofHim]

[/color][/size]

Of course the elect are protected during that time! That's exactly why the tribulation was shortened to 5 months. Christ's mission was to not lose any of the elect [Joh. 6:39]. If the tribulation of the Antichrist [and his angels] lasted 42 months as originally planned, there would be a greater possibility for the elect to cave into the one-world economy run by the 10 kings.



If you agree, then why do you keep claiming 'then' means 'after'??

The entire tribulation is shortened. That includes the time of Satan's reign, in which God's elect cannot be harmed.

It will be rapturists, and other non-elect, duped Christians who will be delivering up real Christians to Satan's councils for trial. Even Satan is prevented from harming God's elect.

Satan's reign is most definitely part of the great tribulation.

The antichrist is seen in Rev 13 blaspheming the raptured church who at the moment when the antichrist is given his 42 months, is dwelling in heaven.


5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Those "heaven dwellers" are defined in Revelation 12:

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Note the timing and what the raptured church is saying.

 

[LovedofHim]

This is disturbing.

The poll question asked, "According to Jesus own words in Matt 24, the order of events is..."

A: AofD, Great Trib, Great trib cut short, antichrist arises
B: Antichrist arises, Great Trib, Great Trib cut short


15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (1), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

21For then shall be great tribulation (2) , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (3)



23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders;(4) insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

And FOUR people so far have voted against the Lord's own words and I am the only one who agrees with Him!

Do you want to understand Truth as God told us or do you want to hold on to doctrines of men?

Time is running out. Make sure the Spirit of God dwells in you.