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Another squeeze for your eschatological understanding.

According to Jesus' words in Matt 24, the order of events is:

  • AofD, great trib, trib cut short, antichrist arises

  • Antichrist arises, great trib, great trib cut short


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LovedofHim

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UHH, the word AFTER is not there.

That is saying the tribulation is cut short.

You have already said YOURSELF we are IN the tribulation and have been SINCE 70AD.

The word "then" is there.

Try again.

What does JESUS say arises after the great tribulation is cut short:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.
 
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Watchman_2

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Let's find out if this is willful ignorance. What happens after the abomination of desolation according to Jesus in Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

Neither of the 'then' references [v. 21 and 23] mean 'after'. Therein lies your great bastardization of scripture.

Your question is nonsensical!
 
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LovedofHim

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Neither of the 'then' references [v. 21 and 23] mean 'after'. Therein lies your great bastardization of scripture.

Your question is nonsensical!

You're cornered, you know it, and you don't know what to do. You can't answer truthfully because it doesn't jive with your theology because your theology is proven wrong by Jesus words in that passage. You can't deny Jesus' words because He's God. Your only option is to launch a personal attack and run.

Last chance:

What is the order of events according to Jesus in Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

What comes first, the antichrist or the great tribulation?
 
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ivebeenshown

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What?

Are you attempting to insult someone here? If so, why? What is your motivation, BROTHER? Do we not all here serve and LOVE our amazing Lord and Savior? How does that honor Him and each other?
It's called a joke, and I'll be the first to admit that I've been guilty of what I ridicule. Sorry if I hurt your feelers, don't be offended. ^_^
 
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son_flower

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I'm saying "at the time" when the great tribulation is cut short, Watchman2.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before


The great tribulation as Jesus defined it in Matt 24 is obviously NOT what you think it is.

It sais there the tribulation is when the AOD happens

THEN shall be great tribulation. YOU underlined it yourself. You said yourself MANY times it started in 70AD. You deny it now??

THEN is just defined for you.

and if that tribulation is not shortened(for our sake)

THEN (at that tribulation time) would no flesh be saved.

WE are in it. it WILL be cut short so we will be saved.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Let's find out if this is willful ignorance. What happens after the abomination of desolation according to Jesus in Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.
Alright, so you will acknowledge that 'then' can mean 'at that time'. But now the question is: at *what* time?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
 
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LovedofHim

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It sais there the tribulation is when the AOD happens

THEN shall be great tribulation. YOU underlined it yourself. You said yourself MANY times it started in 70AD. You deny it now??

THEN is just defined for you.

and if that tribulation is not shortened(for our sake)

THEN (at that tribulation time) would no flesh be saved.

WE are in it. it WILL be cut short so we will be saved.

If you can see that the great tribulation started with the abomination of desolation, why can't you see that the antichrist/false prophet/false miracles arises with the cutting short of the tribulation?

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before
 
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LovedofHim

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Alright, so you will acknowledge that 'then' can mean 'at that time'. But now the question is: at *what* time?

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Ivebeenshown, Those days of the great tribulation ARE SHORTENED, THEN (at that time) shall arise false christs, false prophets, false miracles.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before
 
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Watchman_2

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You're cornered, you know it, and you don't know what to do. Your only option is to launch a personal attack and run.

Last chance:

What is the order of events according to Jesus in Matt 24:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

What comes first, the antichrist or the great tribulation?

LOL...You are the one cornered! The only way you can attempt to make any sense is when you insist that 'then' can only mean 'after'. When one sees that 'then' means 'at the time', your entire theology crumbles.

It all depends on how you define the great tribulation. The first 4 vials of God's wrath are poured out prior to the casting out of heaven of Satan and his angels. Hence, for Rapturists and other non-elect Christians, their tribulation starts prior to the tribulation for God's elect.

As for God's elect, their great tribulation begins when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven [Rev. 12:9]. If you are thinking of the tribulation of God's elect in asking your question, the great tribulation starts with the desolator working behind the scenes while giving power to his angels, of which the 10 kings will rule the world. The revealing of the Antichrist, though part of this tribulation, does not take place until half-way through the tribulation time.

So, if one has to list the commencement of events in order for the tribulation of God's elect, it would be -

1. Great Tribulation commences
2. Abomination of Desolation revealed

The shortened time covers both. That's why your poll is garbage!
 
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son_flower

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If you can see that the great tribulation started with the abomination of desolation, why can't you see that the antichrist/false prophet/false miracles arises with the cutting short of the tribulation?

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before

I can see the AOD caused the tribulation because it did.

I can also see WHO the AOD is.

It was ANTICHRIST.

You call it rome. That is false.

Rome is not antichrist. Rome is the rock of the Church.

ANTICHRIST is a spirit.

You are talking about the false prophet who empowers the beast. Revelation NEVER calls either one of them THE Antichrist.

You do.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
 
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ivebeenshown

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Ivebeenshown, Those days of the great tribulation ARE SHORTENED, THEN (at that time) shall arise false christs, false prophets, false miracles.
That is your opinion. Grammatically, it can go either way, and it is my opinion to read it the other way.
 
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LovedofHim

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That is your opinion. Grammatically, it can go either way, and it is my opinion to read it the other way.

What "other way"?

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before


Here is the elect for whom the great tribulation is cut short, followed by the rising of the antichrist, false prophet, false miracles:

Church:

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

ISRAEL:
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Antichrist:

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Again, here is the elect, prior to the revealing of the antichrist:

Revelation 7


Israel:
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9After this I beheld, an

Church:
d, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Antichrist:
Revelation 9


1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
 
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ivebeenshown

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What "other way"?
Matthew 24
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

They taught us grammar in grade school by getting us to ask questions. For instance: the text says 'at that time'.

At what time?
At the time of 'those days', or...
...at the time of the shortening of 'those days'?
You view it as the latter, and I the former.
 
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son_flower

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The word "then" is there.

Try again.

What does JESUS say arises after the great tribulation is cut short:

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then (at that time) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

Jesus does not say after anywhere in verse 21-24, He sais FOR.

For there shall arise.

For means 'because'. Not after or when.

It does not say then shall they arise, it sais Then..... FOR there shall arise.
then for there shall arise makes no sense
 
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LovedofHim

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Jesus does not say after anywhere in verse 21-24, He sais FOR.

For there shall arise.

For means 'because'. Not after or when.

It does not say then shall they arise, it sais Then..... FOR there shall arise.
then for there shall arise makes no sense

I cannot believe this is so difficult for people to see - either it's willful ignorance, blindness, or a blatant refusal to accept the very words of Jesus!

It's stunning!


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (why, Jesus, Why should we "believe it not" when they say "here is the Christ or there" at the time when the tribulation is cut short?)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.
 
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LovedofHim

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Matthew 24
23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

They taught us grammar in grade school by getting us to ask questions. For instance: the text says 'at that time'.

At what time?
At the time of 'those days', or...
...at the time of the shortening of 'those days'?
You view it as the latter, and I the former.

Well, that's the million dollar question, Ivebeenshown.

What comes first, the gathering of the elect at the shortening of the great tribulation or the antichrist?

Too bad we don't have a scripture that tells us....oh..uh...yeah we do!!!! We have five different passages that I can think of right off the top of my head.

Revelation 6-9 shows the church in heaven and "came out of great tribulation" and THEN the antichrist shows up 2 seals later.

Revelation 12 and 13 shows the church in heaven and Israel protected when the antichrist shows up to blaspheme the heaven-dwellers.

1 Thess 4 and 5 show the gathering before the Day of the Lord

Isaiah, Psalms, Joel and Daniel all prove it too.

And then there's this little gem:

2Th 2:1Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:2not to be quickly shaken in your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as from us, saying that the day of Messiah had come
2Th 2:3Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped; so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God.
2Th 2:5Don't you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
2Th 2:7For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nothing by the brightness of his coming;

No indeed. I trust Jesus' words explicitly. The false christs, false prophets, and false miracles arise exacty when Jesus said they do, when the great tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. (why, Jesus, Why should we "believe it not" when they say "here is the Christ or there" at the time when the tribulation is cut short?)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.
 
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LovedofHim

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To add further weight to Jesus' words, because HE knew people would argue over this, Jesus said something happens IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation is cut short for the sake of the elect:

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

THat moment is found in the 6th seal of Revelation 6 as well as Joel 2. In both places, the 6th seal (sun and moon darkening, stars falling) occur before the "day of the Lord" / "great day of His wrath" begins.



REv 6: 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Joel 231The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

And there's an entire 7th seal full of antichirst, false prophet, false miracles, trumpets and bowls after the 6th seal when the Day of the Lord/Great Day of His Wrath begins! THe antichrist arises during the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal.

And for those serious Truth seekers, Joel 2 tells us exactly WHY the great tribulation that has been going on since the desolation of Israel has to be cut short for the sake of the elect, complete with gathering of God's people, the elect, at the last trumpet!
 
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ivebeenshown

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(why, Jesus, Why should we "believe it not" when they say "here is the Christ or there" at the time when the tribulation is cut short?)
Why, Jen, why would Jesus even have to tell us to not believe false Christs that arrive after he would supposedly whisk us away?

I think we should clarify a few things for my own sake here:

What do you believe is the 'cutting short'?
 
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LovedofHim

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Why, Jen, why would Jesus even have to tell us to not believe false Christs that arrive after he would supposedly whisk us away?

Jesus was talking to Israel. The remnant of Israel is here, gathered, sealed and protected during the time of wrath on the Day of the Lord when the antichrist is around.

I showed the proof of that to you here:

Rev 12:14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


And here:

Rev 7:

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Here's the antichrist who is not allowed to touch the elect remnant of Israel:

Revelation 9


1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


I think we should clarify a few things for my own sake here:

What do you believe is the 'cutting short'?

The great tribulation that began with the desolation of Israel (wars, famine, plagues, pestilence, persecution, martyrdom, captivity) is what is cut short for the sake of the elect. Joel 2 describes why it is cut short or else no one would survive.


20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
 
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