Another sexless unconsummated marriage

[Tropical Wilds]

My point was and is simple: the Church is imbibing the culture and the language of the world. This remains true when it comes to relationships between a man and his wife. The world blames the man for the woman's fault and also for the man's fault.

Even in a forum such as this, the man is routinely held up against Ephesians 6:25 , but the woman is rarely held up to Proverbs 31 or Ephesians 6:22-24. This is damaging to the Church and the family institution.

Back to the 13 year old girl. A 13 year old Christian speaking of a "real man" instead of a "godly man" is speaking the language of this world. It is for this reason that she couldn't say what a "real woman" should never do. This is because the modern western culture - which is spreading to many places of the world - does not place any burden/responsibility on the woman for her to be "real".

If on the other hand she had spent her time renewing her mind with Scripture, she would have known what a godly man is, and with the same zeal spoken of a godly woman; for the Bible covers both.

But because she chose to be hard-headed and worry more about "real men" rather than aspiring to be a "godly woman" , she ended up being expelled from a boarding high school for engaging in homosexual activities and had to sit her final exams as an expelled student.

She later went on to be impregnated by a sodomite (I'm not sure whether the sodomite met the "real man criteria",) and became a single mother at 19. The last time we talked, she was spewing the "I can't trust men, i hate men" lines and she had become a female sodomite.

So... How you speak of that woman... Wow.

All I will say is that when you approach women like that, when you talk about them like that, that will be a defining factor in how they talk to you.

 

[Dave-W]

A wife submits usually because she wants to.

Those who teach that kind of submission would say that is NOT submission. As a former congregation I attended who were promoters of wifely submission said: "Submission is doing something you otherwise would NOT be doing. "

IOW, submission ALWAYS goes against what you want to do.

There is a reason I am not at that congregation any more.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Do you also think that a man should only love his wife only when he wants to? Or the scriptures can only be "adapted" when it comes to the duties of a wife?

I don’t think anybody here is saying wives can selectively love their husbands... Not sure where you’re even getting that from.

 

[Dave-W]

@Dave-W And which card do you pull out when a person pulls out the "Men love your wives as Christ loves the Church 'Card' ?"

Fair question.

Messiah loves us and gave His life up for; us no matter how rebellious we are. We as husbands should be able to shoulder any kind of anything from our wives and be as rock solid in our love as Messiah is toward us.

Even when we may feel we are dying from it. Messiah DID die.

 

[Dave-W]

I don’t think anybody here is saying wives can selectively love their husbands... Not sure where you’re even getting that from.

There is no specific command anywhere in scripture for wives to love their husbands, beyond the general command to love all christians.

But husbands DO have a specific command to be sacrificial in their love for their wives. If you do not feel like you are dying, you are NOT fulfilling that command.

 

[Endeavourer]

Au contraire!

If a man pulls the Eph 5.22 "submit" card, I pull the Hebrews 13:17 "submit card:"

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.​

IOW, if a man wants his wife to "submit" to him, he had ALREADY be submitting himself to the local congregational leaders. And to the same depth and degree.

Lead by example, right?

Oh, and BTW, there is no "submit to one another" clause in that passage.

So, Dave-W, what do you do when a man is abusing his wife and she seeks help from the "church" "leaders" for her marriage. So, the "church" "leaders" take the husband out for lunch to tell him he needs to get his wife under control better, and then they start a discipline process on the wife for not submitting to her husband, because if she were submitting better there would not be problems in her marriage?

 

[Dave-W]

So, Dave-W, what do you do when a man is abusing his wife and she seeks help from the "church" "leaders" for her marriage. So, the "church" "leaders" take the husband out for lunch to tell him he needs to get his wife under control better, and then they start a discipline process on the wife for not submitting to her husband, because if she were submitting better there would not be problems in her marriage?

Run like H - E _ double hockey sticks and find a new congregation.

If the guy expects to be exonerated for abusing his wife, he should be fine with the pastor and elders working him over and leaving him a bloody mess in some back alley somewhere.

I would have a serious issue with any leaders that would not come down hard on him for the abuse.

BTW - I knew of a congregation in the Detroit area back in the early 1970s where the leadership DID work over some of the guys with 2x4s and put them in the hospital.

 

[Kukus]

Fair question.

Messiah loves us and gave His life up for; us no matter how rebellious we are. We as husbands should be able to shoulder any kind of anything from our wives and be as rock solid in our love as Messiah is toward us.

Even when we may feel we are dying from it. Messiah DID die.

Why is it that when it comes to women's submission you pull a card, but when it comes to men's love, you teach unconditional love? Why don't you teach unconditional submission as The Church submits to Christ and which the Bible Commands?

 

[Endeavourer]

Run like H - E _ double hockey sticks and find a new congregation.

If the guy expects to be exonerated for abusing his wife, he should be fine with the pastor and elders working him over and leaving him a bloody mess in some back alley somewhere.

But "should" doesn't make it reality. That's not what happens in those sad cases.

Your gender theology is confusing me because it seems like you are speaking out of both sides and leaving it ultimately to some church "leader".

However, as fair warning, this was more of a rhetorical question because if you explain more I may choose to not participate in a discussion further because I am no longer persuadable with unbalanced gender theology of either side because unless a marriage engages in mutual love and mutual submission it is generally a cluster of wrecks with either side feeling righteous to dominate the other with their perceived entitlements. I've seen it play out in reality too many times, either way.

Additionally, many marriages which claim the leader/submission theology do not follow it in practice, which leaves both sides frustrated as to how they feel things "should" be when there is conflict.

Oh, and BTW, there is no "submit to one another" clause in that passage.

Where have you filed Eph 5:21?

 

[Dave-W]

Why is it that when it comes to women's submission you pull a card, but when it comes to men's love, you teach unconditional love? Why don't you teach unconditional submission as The Church submits to Christ and which the Bible Commands?

That should be evident in what I have written here.

Is Messiah's love conditional on us obeying? Does he beat and abuse us if we mess up?


ETA: are you in "unconditional submission" and obedience to every whim of your pastor and elders? As the scripture teaches?

 

[Endeavourer]

Why don't you teach unconditional submission as The Church submits to Christ and which the Bible Commands?

Is that what you're after? Is that the way you feel marriages should be?

 

[Dave-W]

Where have you filed Eph 5:21?

I was referring to the Hebrews 13 passage. No mutual submission between a husband and his congregational leaders.
He is to obey and submit PERIOD.

 

[Kukus]

As I showed you above, that's what this forum specifically did not do. So your continuation in that vein is false labeling. I told him that holding him to unbalanced Eph 5:25 teachings it was damaging and depraved theology.

Btw, for women it's Eph 5:21-24. The verb "submit" does not appear in v22 in the Greek transcripts. In the Greek, v. 22 references back to v.21 for its verb. V.21 is mutual submission. Look it up in an interlinear. And there are just as many if not more women gravely harmed by unbalanced Eph 5:22 teachings because many churches teach that this commands women to submit to abuse.

Here's a clip from a prominent radio speaker and church leader (John Piper) who promotes submission as part of womanhood. He and his womanhood=submission+no-divorce-ever theology, and similar from other radio greats such as John McAurther, et al have caused a lot of harm:

Unbalanced gender theology in all of its forms is an abomination to marriages and to people.

If you are going to pull an Ephesians 5:22 etc. out on either a woman or a man, the only way to interpret it to a woman is that she has to submit but does not have to love. To the man, he has to love but does not have to submit in any way, including to her needs or desires.

Which husband wants a wife/servant/sex slave who submits in all things but has no love or feelings for him? What woman wants a husband who loves her but robs her liberty with his rule?

Interestingly enough, late in his 'ministry', John Piper had to take a sabbatical to fix his own marriage. It seems his manhood=domination and womanhood=submission theology wasn't working out for his wife either.

So, there are many religious organizations (I won't refer to those types as churches, because their theology is far from the body of Christ) pushing depraved theology on both sides. Ultimately, it does not reflect how God created us and it incites entitled abuse and selfishness by both genders in marriages, depending upon which side of the theology you are caught up under.

My urging for people who attend churches up either creek is to run for the hills and never look back.

There is always a Greek way out, isn't it?
Anyway, the teaching of submission is not the doctrine of John Piper. It is the teaching of the Bible.

Having said that, i can see that you lean towards slander - first by attributing woman-hating to me, and then attributing "domination" to John Piper's marital problems. For this reason, i'm out. I don't see any edification coming from discussing with you.

 

[Kukus]

Is that what you're after? Is that the way you feel marriages should be?

What is the relevance of my feelings? The important thing is what does the word of God say?

 

[Endeavourer]

The important thing is what does the word of God say?

Yes, that is the important thing. People who land on Eph 5:22 without the context of the full counsel of Scripture are missing a lot.

What is a wife to do if her husband is abusive under your theology?

 

[Endeavourer]

There is always a Greek way out, isn't it?

Well, aren't you interested in what Paul actually wrote?

Having said that, i can see that you lean towards slander - first by attributing woman-hating to me, and then attributing "domination" to John Piper's marital problems.

I don't have to attribute that to Piper - he is happy to attribute that to himself. Did you agree with his comments in the video I linked? Have you studied his extensive manhood and womanhood writings?

 

[Dave-W]

either side feeling righteous to dominate the other with their perceived entitlements.

And there is the problem: "perceived entitlements." No one has any entitlements period. Thinking you do is just plain selfishness.

 

[Endeavourer]

So... How you speak of that woman... Wow.

All I will say is that when you approach women like that, when you talk about them like that, that will be a defining factor in how they talk to you.

Having said that, i can see that you lean towards slander - first by attributing woman-hating to me,

Kukas, I wasn't the only woman who felt the harshness of your language addressing us.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Why is it that when it comes to women's submission you pull a card, but when it comes to men's love, you teach unconditional love? Why don't you teach unconditional submission as The Church submits to Christ and which the Bible Commands?

Because unconditional sexual submission isn’t a marriage...?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

No reason to take on a wife unless you are going to love her all the time.

Sometimes it'll be up sometimes it'll be down give her love every time she's around.

Something some never find a treasure to be found.

M-Bob