Another sexless unconsummated marriage

Dave-W

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Rick, I am concerned you do not grasp the importance of an acronym I learned in sunday school - about age 5: JOY = Jesus, Others, Yourself. The needs and wishes of the others in our lives always come ahead of our own needs and wishes.
 
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Saricharity

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JOY = Jesus, Others, Yourself.
This reminds me of a song I was taught when I was really little.

Jesus and others and you.
What a wonderful way to spell Joy... (now I will be humming it all day)

J is for Jesus for He has first place
O is for others you meet face to face
Y is for you in whatever you do, put yourself third and spell JOY! :)
 
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Dave-W

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This reminds me of a song I was taught when I was really little.

Jesus and others and you.
What a wonderful way to spell Joy... (now I will be humming it all day)

J is for Jesus for He has first place
O is for others you meet face to face
Y is for you in whatever you do, put yourself third and spell JOY! :)
I never heard that ditty, but it certainly sums up the teaching quite well.
I think someone else posted a similar lyric they learned in sunday school.
 
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Ricky3369

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Rick, I am concerned you do not grasp the importance of an acronym I learned in sunday school - about age 5: JOY = Jesus, Others, Yourself. The needs and wishes of the others in our lives always come ahead of our own needs and wishes.

Sexually refusing spouses (wives or husbands) need to stop sinning and experience the grace that comes with repentance and forgiveness. Accountability through church discipline is meant to restore that which is broken. A broken sex life is a stronghold of sin that places the marriage in jeopardy. It is not a lack of love that leads to holding wives (or husbands) accountable for sexual refusal. It is a recognition of the terrible damage to the marriage that sexual refusal causes. The assumption that the sexual refuser does not need sex and the sexually refused person is selfish for wanting it is a total fallacy. Also fallacious is the idea that it is unloving for men to hold their wives accountable while it is perfectly normal and expected for wives to hold husbands accountable.

Stop making excuses for sin. Stop the double standard. There may be a legal secular right to refuse sex in marriage but it is not a moral biblical right. You are soft on this sin because you have spent so many years rationalizing it. I compare it to inappropriate content because it is a sin that damages the marriage bed just as much. And there is a great deal of disagreement over whether inappropriate content is on the level with adultery. A LOT of disagreement. There is also a lot of disagreement that sexual refusal is grounds for divorce and I am not prepared to argue that. I am prepared to argue, however, that it is a grievous sin to God and it is not loving to allow it to perpetuate. Holding wives accountable is not fashionable because of our feminist era. The church does have a hard time with the idea as opposed to accountability for husbands.

Most of our men's ministries are devoted to accountability and sexual purity while most women's ministries are self-help pablum or faulty theology from female teachers with no formal seminary training. It is swimming upstream culturally but it is not from selfishness that I assert this. The rise of sexless marriages not only damages the relationships themselves but also sets a pattern for future generations. If we want our children to embrace the message of "True Love Waits" then we are undermining our own cause by allowing the epidemic of sexless marriage to go unaddressed. As the secular culture turns against marriage, young Christian men and women are wondering if there is any benefit to waiting for sex. Sexless marriage has been the butt of jokes for decades but it is no laughing matter. If we send a message that marriage is not necessarily a sexual relationship then I guarantee you my sons will NOT marry. No young men and most young women will not marry if they expect to have sex cut off after a while. Bait-and-switch is fraud and makes a mockery of the covenant of marriage. This is unsustainable.

Your accusation that my arguments are based on selfishness is simply wrong. Look at the bigger picture.
 
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Dave-W

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I compare it to inappropriate content because it is a sin that damages the marriage bed just as much. A
Show me chapter and verse on that one.
 
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iLove

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NO am sorry but no one body belongs to another person how do you know she hasnt been abused in her past saying things like this
is dangerous its saying that rape is ok ITS NOT OK TO RAPE SOMEONE NO MATTER IF THERE IN A RELATIONSHIP OR NOT THERE BODYS ISNT LIKE A THING THAT CAN BE TAKEN THERE BODY IS THERES AND ITS SHOULD RESPECTED if she cant have sex SHE CANT HAVE SEX dont force her to have sex if she been abused she maybe been having flashbacks she needs help and love
When the Believer doesn't understand how the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus operates (Romans 8:2)," they enter back into the "Law of sin and death;" The snare of the Devil - a captive of Satan (2 Timothy 2:24-26).

Most Christians are proclaiming Jesus, but ignoring the Cross (half measures won't do - lukewarm). This is called "spiritual adultery." Christ is become of no effect unto you, because you are you are frustrating grace. All born again Christians place their Faith in Jesus Christ and the Cross of Calvary for Salvation. But few Christians place and maintain their Faith exclusively in Christ and the Cross of Calvary for Sanctification. In other words their Faith may be in Christ but not the Cross, i.e., "The Finished Work," i.e., "The Blood of Jesus." The Apostle Paul calls this "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4). Christ must never be separated from the Work of the Cross; to do so is to produce "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4). The Cross of Christ is as necessary for Sanctification as it is for Salvation (1 Cor. 1:18).

“HOW SERIOUS IS THIS MATTER OF “SPIRITUAL ADULTERY”?

I will answer that by asking another question, “How serious is unfaithfulness as it regards marriage between a husband and wife?”

“If the Believer doesn’t understand the Cross of Christ as it refers to Sanctification, in other words, how we live for the Lord on a daily basis, the only other alternative is “spiritual adultery.” And, to be sure, even as physical adultery destroys a marriage, likewise, “spiritual adultery” will destroy the marriage of the Believer with the Lord. It cannot be otherwise!”

JSM
 
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DZoolander

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trailer-park-boy-what.gif
 
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Ricky3369

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Show me chapter and verse on that one.

You mean other than 1 Corinthians 7:5?

Is Refusing Sex in Marriage a Sin? | Hot, Holy & Humorous
https://www.growthtrac.com/sexless-marriage/
The sex sin the church ignores | The Generous Husband

I am done arguing this with you so I invite you to respond to Paul Byerly of Generous Husband or some other blogger and make your case that your wife's chronic sexual refusal is A-OK with God and that it would be unloving for you to seek any outside assistance in confronting her refusal. If you have made your peace with living the life of a married incel then I would be amazed to hear how you have spiritually flourished in spite of it, contrary to the warnings in 1 Corinthians 7:5.

Perhaps you could write a self-help book on how to re-acquire the gift of celibacy post-marriage so that sexually refused husbands all across America could follow your recipe and sexually refusing wives could use your example as a message to their libidinous husbands to leave them alone once and for all.
 
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Paidiske

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DZoolander is right. Dave-W's college congregation is not the model we should follow. Full sexual disclosure should occur during pre-marital counseling. Any trauma or sexual dysfunction should be fully vetted and known by both spouses before entering into the one flesh relationship. Each spouse should be able to determine if they are willing to make the sacrifices that are necessary to bring the sexually dysfunctional spouse to full sexual health.

The difficulty with this, I think, is that often a person with no sexual experience (which is what we hope someone in pre-marital counselling will be) is not in a position to make full sexual disclosure.

My trauma and abuse was not sexual, for example, and I had no way of knowing that it would impact my sex life; but it has. But if you'd sat me down as a virgin and asked me, I wouldn't have known that, because I didn't have a sex life yet and hadn't experienced how it would impact that area of my life.

I agree that in an ideal world this is how it would be, but I am not sure that in the real world it is very achievable, especially for many young women.

As a man, I am supposed to be able to take anything without negative response.

I don't agree, Dave.

As to all the rest of the argument that's broken out about whether and under what conditions spouses (especially wives) can refuse sex, all I'm going to point out is that the people participating in this conversation are not all in the same place, in terms of life stage, health, or personal experience. I would suggest that it is wise to deal gently with those who seem distressed by the discussion.
 
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Dave-W

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I am done arguing this with you so I invite you to respond to Paul Byerly of Generous Husband
LOL!!! I have had many email conversations with both Paul and Lori Byerly. My wife may have even had a phone conversation with Lori at one point. (or maybe that was Joyce Penner; too long ago to remember clearly)
 
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*LILAC

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Rick, I am concerned you do not grasp the importance of an acronym I learned in sunday school - about age 5: JOY = Jesus, Others, Yourself. The needs and wishes of the others in our lives always come ahead of our own needs and wishes.
Learned this young too. Nowadays it's memememememememememeeeeeeeeee!
 
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kkamagwi

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hello. I am here to share my story. I know we need counseling but that does not seem to be on my wife’s radar right now. Yes we have talked about this but nothing is getting done. I am working on myself it’s all I have left. So I have been married for 15 years and we dated for a year. We have NOT consummated the marriage yet. I have a very high drive and I am at my wits end. Yes on occasion she will take care of me but it has to be a certain way and only at night. I have lived with this for so long I have become numb bitter angry and that is not me. I have always been a very happy person but my limit is maxed out. I just wanted people to know that you are not alone and if you think a couple of years is tuff then you are just getting started to understanding my pain. I feel trapped, hopeless and alone. I know I’m not as I read many others accounts of sexless marriages. My situation is unique in that we have never had sex. Please pray for me as this new year begins that something changes in my heart or hers and I can start to feel normal again. I know God has used this marriage to help many people along the way, I am now the one looking for help.

My wife has had trams in her life and I feel for her in that, but how long is long enough before making things better.

Ask any questions. Here I am an open book.
Sorry Alongtime, I don't get it. You say there's no sex, but also, "Yes on occasion she will take care of me but it has to be a certain way and only at night." Is her taking care of you not sex?
 
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Endeavourer

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Hi Alongtime,

It seems your thread was derailed with a bunch of bickering about people's own situations and short on specific advice to you.

Does your wife say why she doesn't want to have sex?

There is a great series of articles about conflicts regarding sex in the link below. One deals specifically on aversions to sex:
Willingness to Desire #1

What do you think of these articles?
 
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EmmaCat

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While I understand a man having to go without sex, I understand it can be tough.

However, as I spoke to my husband of this, and we looked as this, perhaps it would be best to look to God for guidance for these issues. Sometimes prayer is best.

Perhaps putting this to God is best.

All good things
Emmy
 
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Endeavourer

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Sexually refusing spouses (wives or husbands) need to stop sinning

Stop making excuses for sin. Stop the double standard. There may be a legal secular right to refuse sex in marriage but it is not a moral biblical right. You are soft on this sin because you have spent so many years rationalizing it.

I am prepared to argue, however, that [sexual refusal] is a grievous sin to God

Holding wives accountable is not fashionable because of our feminist era. The church does have a hard time with the idea as opposed to accountability for husbands.

The best sex is always that coerced by the business end of the Bible, right? /sarc

Ricky, often a lack of sexual desire (or even an aversion to sex) by the wife is a result of emotional pain caused by her husband. Generally speaking, for a wife to enjoy sex she needs to feel emotionally close to her husband and anticipate the prospect of enjoyment.

Note that I say "generally" and "often", because there are exceptions to every rule. But something doesn't become a rule without a preponderant trend, so before you assume anything else is the cause, including past sexual trauma, make sure your side of the street is cleaned up from love busting behaviors.

In this post and the others you've manifested attitudes and behaviors, including a tendency to strike out in anger, that would be less than endearing to a wife.

For example, in your other post you feel entitled to berate your wife by continuing to fight with her after she asks you to stop. She'll ask you to stop after 5 minutes but, according to your cultural experiences, you explained that 2 to 3 hours is your expectation.

You may have more ability to influence the sexual refusal you are experiencing than you are giving yourself credit for. Stopping your lovebusting behaviors would be a great first step towards inviting your wife to do the same and step towards a great marriage. You can lead the way by example. Wives are often quite responsive to changed behaviors by their husband.

Here are some resources to help you examine and recalibrate your habits and behaviors.
Love Busters (Marriage Builders®)

You going first to change the pattern of abuse in your marriage will be a warm and loving invitation for her to follow suit.
 
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Dave-W

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You going first to change the pattern of abuse in your marriage will be a warm and loving invitation for her to follow suit.
Since the marriage is unconsummated, you are saying there was a pattern of abuse BEFORE the wedding?
 
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Dave-W

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His wife obviously doesn't...
Which specific vow is she NOT taking seriously?

Here is the standard list:

I, ____, take you, ____, to be my wife (or husband), to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part, according to God's holy law, and this is my solemn vow.​
 
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Ricky3369

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The best sex is always that coerced by the business end of the Bible, right?

Once again the obtuseness is unbelievable. If you are capable of making distinctions, then let me make one so you will hopefully understand:

1. Seduction strategy, i.e. how spouses cultivate and inspire physical intimacy
2. Biblical truth, i.e theology and teaching

One of the most persistent fallacies is the attempt to refute scriptural teaching on the issue of conjugal rights/duties is by arguing that citing these teachings is not going to work to cause a spouse to be more willing to engage in such activities. This is confusing seduction strategy with proper teaching of biblical truth.

What I am arguing for is biblical truth and the clarity of what is at stake in the issue of sexless marriages. This is from a teaching and counseling perspective, not from the perspective of seduction strategy. It is the same difference between theology and ecclesiology. One focuses on truth as scripture lays it out. The other on how truth is communicated for maximum effectiveness.

If you are at all capable of READING what is written rather than inferring what your bias tells you, then I cannot communicate with you. You are hopeless. You have your prejudices and they are unyielding to truth.

In your other post you feel entitled to berate your wife by continuing to fight with her after she asks you to stop. She'll ask you to stop after 5 minutes but, according to your cultural experiences, you explained that 2 to 3 hours is your expectation.

No again, you lack even basic reading comprehension and your biases are obvious. I do not berate my wife. I defend myself when criticized after being attacked in an unprovoked manner. I did not start the conflict. I simply responded. After 5 minutes, my wife expects me to yield to her perception of the situation or she will leave.

I do not expect her to go 2 to 3 hours. Just because I have an experience growing up does not mean that I automatically expect similar things in marriage. I do however, expect that my wife will try to understand my experience and work with it not against it. Certainly I do not expect anything close to 2 to 3 hours. I only have asked her to allow me to have a conversation that doesn't involve ultimatums or threats from her if I don't agree with her take on things. And 5 minutes is never enough to bring clarity and effective communication to resolve differences. If that's all I get, though, I guess I just need to talk faster before the 300 seconds is up.

There is also a control issue. You call it "berating" because you are ignorant about the way I talk. Profanity is off the table. Accusations are out of bounds. Threats are big no-no. I defend and make arguments for why I believe I did the right thing. She disagrees and doesn't accept my explanation or doesn't even allow me the time to make an explanation.

You remind me of Cathy Newman, the British newscaster who interviewed Jordan Peterson.
. Every time he said something, she would re-phrase it in the most uncharitable way possible, even to the point of completely mis-representing his point. The obtuseness in that infamous interview was amazing.
 
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