Another Question For Tall73

[woobadooba]

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[tall73]

I've noticed that you have been spending a great deal of time lately trying to convince SDA members not to believe certain doctrines that we hold dear to our hearts.

It's one thing to offer some input that could help us to better understand our doctrines, but something else entirely to expect us to renounce them for your views.

You started off on the matter concerning the prophetic gift of Ellen White, and then the IJ. You even addressed the matter of Clean and Unclean foods, and now you are in the process of trying to correct us on the Sabbath doctrine. Though you haven't blatantly rejected it, you are following the same path that you did with the IJ, which lads me to believe that you are in the process of building yourself up to a full rejection of it. After all, you are using the same arguments that have been used for decades to try to prove that it is no longer binding to the Christian.

Most congregational areas would not even allow this to take place within their forum as it appears that you are trying to convert us to your way of thinking which fosters views that are contrary to what we believe as a church.

It appears to me that you are endeavoring to proselytize us. Is that what you intend to do in here?

I intend to discuss and debate issues that I care about and to clarify things for myself and anyone who wishes to participate.

Question for Woob--if I couldn't ask questions as a pastor and couldn't ask them after being a pastor and can't ask them after not being a member--when can I?

 

[woobadooba]

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[ricker]

No, you intend to change our church!

http://christianforums.com/t6486270-progressives-what-is-the-plan-to-change-the-church.html

And you have put up a plethora of other threads challenging our doctrines.

It's one thing to ask questions that will help you to better understand what WE believe as a church, but something else entirely to try to convince us to accept YOUR views which are contrary to what the SDA church believes. You aren't just looking for discussion. You are trying to convert us to your way of thinking.

You have already made it CLEAR that WE are WRONG, and that you are no longer an SDA because of this. So why would you need further clarification when you have already made up your mind to not be a member of this church anymore?

It appears that you just want to proselytize us at this point. Other congregational areas would not allow this, nor should we be expected to put up with it.

I think at this point you should just ask CF if they would allow you to start up your own Congregational forum to represent your own movement rather than to argue with us, and thus expect us to accept your views in place of the ones that we hold dear to our hearts.[/quote

If you don't mind I will butt in to say one thing. Adventists should be carefull when accusing others of proselytizing. I know of no other major denomination that does it so blatantly, besides the LDS, possibly.
God bless! Ricker

 

[woobadooba]

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[ricker]

Every church does this. But there is a way to go about it that is wrong, and a right way to do it.

I wouldn't go into the Baptist forum and try to get them to renounce their beliefs for the SDA teachings, just as I wouldn't go into a church and try to undermine or sabotage it. That is the wrong way to do it.

My Lutheran church doesn't give Revelation seminars aimed at other Christians, and we certainly don't go around trying to convince Baptists or Methodists or whoever that they are wrong in any way. We believe that we are all part of the catholic (universal, not Roman) church and are all saved through Christ's death and ressurection. Having been a SDA for many years and a Lutheran for many years I can tell you for sure, there is a difference. No one even raises an eybrow if for some reason someone switches from Lutheran to Presbyterian or whatever.
That being said, this is a discussion forum where non-Advenists are allowed to debate, and until that changes I for one will continue to debate and try to understand your perspective and question things that don't seem quite right to me. We need to be able to defend our beliefs! That includes Tall or I defending our beliefs to Adventists. God bless! Ricker

 

[tall73]

My internet is intermittent today. Thanks for stepping in ricker.

No, you intend to change our church!

http://christianforums.com/t6486270-progressives-what-is-the-plan-to-change-the-church.html

This forum is not the church is it? Yes, I would very much like the church to change. But that was not my point in making that thread.

The progressives keep talking change but they don't have any big plans for change. My point is why stay rather than go somewhere that they could be more productive. It was a response to the thought by some that formers should not leave when they have problems but to stay and change.

What change is possible from within that is not from without if folks have decided not to change?

And you have put up a plethora of other threads challenging our doctrines.

Of course. What is it that you think debate means?

Why would I want to clarify for myself and anyone who wishes to participate if there is no perceived need to clarify on my part?

It's one thing to ask questions that will help you to better understand what WE believe as a church, but something else entirely to try to convince us to accept YOUR views which are contrary to what the SDA church believes.

This is the debate section. I think you are looking for the main section.

I know what you believe. I am wanting to see if it is supported by Scripture. In some cases I think it is not. In some cases I am deciding. On some issues I agree with the church. Hence I would like to discuss AND DEBATE these things.

This seems like the proper area, does it not?

You aren't just looking for discussion. You are trying to convert us to your way of thinking.

Discussion and debate may do that. But even if it doesn't I still can clarify my own views. Far more than just reading the discussion that I have had with others, both on forums and in real life have helped me to clarify what I believe the Scriptures to be saying.

I suspect they might for others too.

Why is that a problem for you?

You have already made it CLEAR that WE are WRONG, and that you are no longer an SDA because of this. So why would you need further clarification when you have already made up your mind to not be a member of this church anymore?

Because I am working my way through one by one.

But on the Sanctuary yes I believe you are wrong. I would like to debate the topic with you. I would like you to change your views if indeed that is what you find the Scriptures to say. I would very much like for everyone of us to study these things more and change if need be. This is the section for that, right?


From the guidelines:
3.2 Other Christians and non-Christians are also allowed to debate respectfully.
3.3 Topics can include, but are not limited to, SDA theology, history, culture, and personalities.

Now you seem to indicate that I should only ask about your beliefs. That is what the main section is for:

3.5 Those inquiring about Adventist beliefs should be directed to the main Adventist forum. Only Adventist members are allowed to explain what Adventists believe in the main Adventist forum. These statements, as outlined above, should be in accordance with official church statements. Non-Adventists who wish to debate Adventist beliefs, as opposed to sincerely inquiring about those beliefs in order to gain more information, should post in the debate section.

[FONT=&quot]

It appears that you just want to proselytize us at this point. Other congregational areas would not allow this, nor should we be expected to put up with it.

Actually I think there may be others that have debate areas. They allow folks who disagree with them to debate.

I think at this point you should just ask CF if they would allow you to start up your own Congregational forum to represent your own movement rather than to argue with us, and thus expect us to accept your views in place of the ones that we hold dear to our hearts.

What you really think is I should believe like you!

So debate it. Or don't. Your choice of course.

Now to my question which you never answered--when was it right for me to ask questions? When was the proper time?

[/FONT]

 

[NightEternal]

And so it begins again...

 

[OntheDL]

No, you intend to change our church!

http://christianforums.com/t6486270-progressives-what-is-the-plan-to-change-the-church.html

And you have put up a plethora of other threads challenging our doctrines.

It's one thing to ask questions that will help you to better understand what WE believe as a church, but something else entirely to try to convince us to accept YOUR views which are contrary to what the SDA church believes. You aren't just looking for discussion. You are trying to convert us to your way of thinking.

You have already made it CLEAR that WE are WRONG, and that you are no longer an SDA because of this. So why would you need further clarification when you have already made up your mind to not be a member of this church anymore?

It appears that you just want to proselytize us at this point. Other congregational areas would not allow this, nor should we be expected to put up with it.

I think at this point you should just ask CF if they would allow you to start up your own Congregational forum to represent your own movement rather than to argue with us, and thus expect us to accept your views in place of the ones that we hold dear to our hearts.

I'll agree on this with Wooba. Tall, you do not keep an openmind no matter what's presented before you. I've noticed this for quite some time. That's why I don't normally participate in your discussions. It's fruitless.

This is only my observation. It's expected with others here. But I thought you were better than this.

 

[moicherie]

Woob it seems you have a problem with Adventists former and present who think differently from yourself it may be better for your stress levels to avoid the debate and discuss section. All Tall is doing is debating and discussing if you don't like it don't read the thread.

 

[moicherie]

Debate and discuss does not mean 'keep an open mind but at the end of said discussion you must agree with my personal conclusions' I have not come across Tall debating or discussing in such a manner. What you all afraid of? Is your faith in what you believe is so shaky you think Tall might get you to change your minds?

 

[OntheDL]

Debate and discuss does not mean 'keep an open mind but at the end of said discussion you must agree with my personal conclusions' I have not come across Tall debating or discussing in such a manner. What you all afraid of? Is your faith in what you believe is so shaky you think Tall might get you to change your minds?

My faith shaky? I don't think Tall has presented anything new other than different interpretations.

 

[NightEternal]

Debate and discuss does not mean 'keep an open mind but at the end of said discussion you must agree with my personal conclusions' I have not come across Tall debating or discussing in such a manner. What you all afraid of? Is your faith in what you believe is so shaky you think Tall might get you to change your minds?

Exactly.

I think we know who the closed-minded SDA subgroup is, and it ain't us.

 

[OntheDL]

Exactly.

I think we know who the closed-minded SDA subgroup is, and it ain't us.

Maybe God should have an openmind to listen to your new theologies than insisting "I change not".

 

[moicherie]

Maybe God should have an openmind to listen to your new theologies than insisting "I change not".

you are not God

 

[StormyOne]

I'll agree on this with Wooba. Tall, you do not keep an openmind no matter what's presented before you. I've noticed this for quite some time. That's why I don't normally participate in your discussions. It's fruitless.

This is only my observation. It's expected with others here. But I thought you were better than this.

and you have shown us that you are completely open-minded? That has not been my observation..... and we need not even contemplate if the author of this particular thread shares in your open-mindedness...

Tall, continue asking the critical questions.... and suggesting possible answers cause some "open-minded" people refuse to ask, review, investigate what the church believes in an honest manner.... IMO.....

 

[StormyOne]

Maybe God should have an openmind to listen to your new theologies than insisting "I change not".

like what you believe God is and what God really is amounts to the same thing? scary.....

 

[moicherie]

My faith shaky? I don't think Tall has presented anything new other than different interpretations.

And he has a right to present whatever topic he wants and conclude whatever he believes. And we have the right to agree or disagree. The section is not called discuss and debate for nothing. I can't believe people are questioning a members right to discuss and debate in the discuss and debate section (sigh). Maybe I should start a thread on do people know what discuss and debate mean?

 

[OntheDL]

you are not God

I think I am somewhat aware of that.

 

[tall73]

I'll agree on this with Wooba. Tall, you do not keep an openmind no matter what's presented before you. I've noticed this for quite some time. That's why I don't normally participate in your discussions. It's fruitless.

This is only my observation. It's expected with others here. But I thought you were better than this.

If I didn't have an open mind why did I change my mind on so many things?

But you don't have to participate. It is open to whoever wants.