Another question for atheists

[Tnmusicman]

This is because christians put forth a positive argument about things, like 'X definitely happened' and then they are asked to support it. How do you know X happened? What is the evidence that X happened?

Atheists rarely put forth positive arguments about things they don't know. Consider the two statements.

"God created the universe."
"We don't yet know what created the universe or how."

Now, the first statement is an assertion of fact, like saying 'I bought a car' or 'That dog has rabies'. When you are asserting a fact, it is normal and expected for you to have something to back it up. I can show you the car, the title with my name on it, the bank account from which the money was taken, and introduce you to the salesman. I can show you the dog, the symptoms, the test results, and the documented history of the disease and its discovery.

Say god created the universe though, and that raises a lot of questions. How do you know that? How did it happen? Where is the evidence? What is 'god'? Who told you this? If it is a book, who wrote it? When did they write it, and what was the current state of scientific knowledge at the time? What other gods exist, and why is your god more likely to exist than other gods? What proof is there that any specific god exists?

Atheists find the offered answers to these questions unsatisfactory, as they only bring about more questions. We prefer a simple statement of honest ignorance. We don't know how it happened. We're trying to figure it out and as soon as we know something definite, we'll let everyone know. It could be awhile though, so in the meantime let's just admit there are some gaps in human knowledge and go on with our lives.

But this is my point. If we offer an HONEST "i dont know" answer dont reply that Im a joke for not knowing!

 

[Tnmusicman]

It is a bit like handing two people a box and saying there is something inside it.

The atheist looks at the box, sees that it is too well constructed to take apart without much better tools, and decides that it is impossible to tell what is in the box.

The theist was told by his parents and people he looked up to that there is an elephant in the box. They set to arguing.

"It is too small a box to fit an elephant, and it is not heavy enough to hold an elephant, and when you shake it it doesn't make sounds like an elephant is inside it."

"Well, do you know what IS inside it?"

"No, I don't know."

"Well, I KNOW it is an elephant. I have been told so, and I believe it is true, and I know it is true in my heart. Maybe it is a very small mute feather light elephant. You don't know, but I do. Therefore, I must be right."

"..."

Not ALL christians get their beliefs from their parents. Some of us searched out other beliefs and decided that Christianity was the way to go. Nothing to do with mommy and daddy,though I will admit alot of Christians are Christians because they were raised in it.

 

[Tnmusicman]

I would also point out how many times I have heard Christians (especially of the fundamentalist variety) say things like "those Atheists think that they have all the answers, but they can't even explain ________." The arrogance cuts both ways -- there are arrogant Atheists who think that anyone who believes in God is an idiot. And, there are Christians who believe the same about anyone who doesn't believe in their conception of God. Likewise there are Atheists who are sincerely and compassionately working through very real doubts about God. And, there are Christians who are sincerely and compassionately trying to share with others what they believe to be true about Him.

I have found that a good rule thumb is that any thread that begins "Why do [members of x group] always __________?" is usually started by someone who is unwilling to see that the plank in their own eye is clouding their judgment about the speck in their neighbors' eyes.

I was simply asking a question about behavior that I have witnessed on youtube.

 

[Tnmusicman]

But, since the OP says "Why do atheists sometimes ________?" I would be inclined to answer, "the same reason that Christians sometimes __________": because there are people in every camp who are wrong in the way they approach logic, reason, and human decency.

Yes,youve made it clear your stance on the matter. Thank you for your response.

 

[Non sequitur]

I was simply asking a question about behavior that I have witnessed on youtube.

It's almost 2 questions.

If whomever acted like a jerk, in the video, it's for whatever reason that makes people act that way.

The essence of your question has been answered a few times.

For a believer to say they know about a god, that presents a problem, because all questions end up and go back to a god... which cannot be demonstrated.

 

[Tnmusicman]

It's almost 2 questions.

If whomever acted like a jerk, in the video, it's for whatever reason that makes people act that way.

The essence of your question has been answered a few times.

For a believer to say they know about a god, that presents a problem, because all questions end up and go back to a god... which cannot be demonstrated.

I realize its been answered ( sorta ).

 

[Non sequitur]

I realize its been answered ( sorta ).

By "sorta", do you mean it was not to your satisfaction?

 

[Tnmusicman]

By "sorta", do you mean it was not to your satisfaction?

perhaps something I havent heard. It appears that noone seems to get what Im asking anyway. I wasent asking about the origins of the universe or evolution or an of that I was simply asking why (on a NUMBER of occasions ) is "I dont know" from the presumably idiot Christian not a good answer but from the logically superior atheist its okay to not know an answer. Seriously,why the double standard? It shouldnt matter that my chosen faith claims to know the answer for sure. We believe God created the world. If atheists dont believe in God then why do you care? Why would it even come up? Ive spoken to many atheists that get into their theory on how the universe was created and it always ends up in the same place--with a "we dont know for sure" or "science will have the answer someday". I accept that as an answer but were I to say the same thing it would be met with a much different reaction ( more than likely ).
Just kinda curious about where the head is at in these times ( on the atheist side ).

 

[Jade Margery]

But this is my point. If we offer an HONEST "i dont know" answer dont reply that Im a joke for not knowing!

I have run into christians in the past who have honestly said, 'I don't know for sure that god exists/made the universe/what I believe is absolutely definitely true, but I believe it anyway because it makes sense to me/makes me happy/gives me purpose/does good in the world." For them, I have much respect, because they are usually the ones not trying to shove their religion down other peoples' throats and they are being intellectually honest. Perhaps you are one of these christians, and if so, then hats off to you.

Unfortunately of all the christians I have met (and being here for something like four years, I've met quite a few) these kind of 'I don't know but that's okay' christians are a very small minority of the whole. A lot of people just seem to not be comfortable with uncertainty, so they will insist on the truth of something they can't actually know or prove. And when you're looking at front-line atheists like AronRa, those are they kind of christians they have to deal with almost exclusively.

 

[variant]

Why do I sometimes see ( it's real common on YouTube ) a Christian and an atheist in a back and forth and the atheist will be asking a question that the Christian can't answer. When Christians ask atheists about orgins of the universe and what not most will respond with something like the following:
"I don't know and neither do you"
Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist.
This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?
I was reading the comments on a reason ralley post and the bulk of the comments were ridiculing Christians for not knowing the answer to a question that AronRa was asking. Why are Christians held to a different standard than atheists on questions that don't really have definative answers? Why the ridicule of Christians ( who don't posit themselves as being logically superior ) and yet the atheist is free to say "I dunno" to any question and nobody is calling them a "joke" for not knowing all the answers. Contrary to popular belief most Christians don't claim to know ALL the answers even though our chosen spiritual beliefs may lay claim to knowledge of things. It must be remembered that just because our spiritual books may claim to have answers it certainly can't account for EVERY question asked nor can the followers be expected to know everything asked of them,especially when the questions don't have black and white answers.Any thoughts on why this happens??

This issue isn't that you can't claim not to know something.

The issue is that you can't back up what you do claim to know.

 

[Shane Roach]

It could well be the result of one's personal experience. I feel I have experienced similar double standards, though this specific one has never happened to me, and I have never seen it before.

Did you have a link to the YouTube video in question?

This thread, for example, is more along the lines of the double standards I am familiar with.

I mean, from the beginning in the OP, the situation described is one of a Christian and an Atheist saying, "I don't know." The first few responses, mine included, were cautious because no one wants to generalize that all atheists act this way. We ask for details.

Then, two pages of atheists patting themselves on the back because Christians, supposedly, are always asserting things and thus they need to be put in their place.

It comes in no small part I think from the fact that, even in countries like Sweden or Norway where religion has been suppressed to nigh extinction, people do not tend to become atheists. They simply stop going to church or engaging in organized religion, but they continue to have spiritual beliefs.

Atheists are aware of this, and so they are in a constant war to promote themselves. Unfortunately, atheism in and of itself is a nearly meaningless, very limited belief. It cannot be "promoted", and it does not come naturally to people whose daily existence on this earth is a spiritual one full of emotions, thoughts, acts of the will, and a thousand other things that cannot be inspected tangibly, yet clearly do exist.

 

[yasic]

perhaps something I havent heard. It appears that noone seems to get what Im asking anyway. I wasent asking about the origins of the universe or evolution or an of that I was simply asking why (on a NUMBER of occasions ) is "I dont know" from the presumably idiot Christian not a good answer but from the logically superior atheist its okay to not know an answer. Seriously,why the double standard? It shouldnt matter that my chosen faith claims to know the answer for sure. We believe God created the world. If atheists dont believe in God then why do you care? Why would it even come up? Ive spoken to many atheists that get into their theory on how the universe was created and it always ends up in the same place--with a "we dont know for sure" or "science will have the answer someday". I accept that as an answer but were I to say the same thing it would be met with a much different reaction ( more than likely ).
Just kinda curious about where the head is at in these times ( on the atheist side ).

Give us context. There are many situations where one can answer "I don't know" and have that be a very valid answer or a blatant means to avoid answering a context. Without context or an actual video to watch, we can't say why those uses are valid or not.

 

[keith99]

4 pages of post and teh OP has responded multiple times and has as far as I can see still not given one specific example.

But there is a specific example that is so common it is trite going the other way. And one that does show the arrogance and ignorance of a particular subset of Christians.

During a discussion of Evolution, in the Darwinian sense, they will insist that the person arguing that evolution explain in detail how life originated.

And then dismiss all the arguments of the other person because they cannot answer this question that has nothign to do with Darwinaian evolution.

EDIT: I want to stress this is far from all or even a significant percentage of Christians. There are Christians who have posted on this thread who would never make that kind of assertion.

 

[keith99]

I have the answer!

I don't know!

And thsi is a perfect example of when it is reasonable to say I do not know.

 

[pgp_protector]

But this is my point. If we offer an HONEST "i dont know" answer dont reply that Im a joke for not knowing!

Not knowing WHAT?

 

[Shane Roach]

4 pages of post and teh OP has responded multiple times and has as far as I can see still not given one specific example.

But there is a specific example that is so common it is trite going the other way. And one that does show the arrogance and ignorance of a particular subset of Christians.

During a discussion of Evolution, in the Darwinian sense, they will insist that the person arguing that evolution explain in detail how life originated.

And then dismiss all the arguments of the other person because they cannot answer this question that has nothign to do with Darwinaian evolution.

EDIT: I want to stress this is far from all or even a significant percentage of Christians. There are Christians who have posted on this thread who would never make that kind of assertion.

That's more of a situation where the atheist is claiming knowledge and NOT saying "I do not know."

Abiogenesis and the evolution of species are indeed separable topics, but it does not take a great leap of logic to see how the one would affect the other. It does not seem to me to be utterly illogical to question the authority with which we assert that diversity evolved from non-diverse origins when we cannot explain at all how the non-diverse organism came to be. In fact, it is still not entirely out of the question that, once abiogenesis were fully explained, we would find that there was diversity from the beginning. Such an argument would necessarily hinge on a full understanding of abiogenesis.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

4 pages of post and teh OP has responded multiple times and has as far as I can see still not given one specific example.

But there is a specific example that is so common it is trite going the other way. And one that does show the arrogance and ignorance of a particular subset of Christians.

During a discussion of Evolution, in the Darwinian sense, they will insist that the person arguing that evolution explain in detail how life originated.

And then dismiss all the arguments of the other person because they cannot answer this question that has nothign to do with Darwinaian evolution.

EDIT: I want to stress this is far from all or even a significant percentage of Christians. There are Christians who have posted on this thread who would never make that kind of assertion.

For me, Evolutions explains the "how" and not the "what"

 

[Blayz]

Atheists are aware of this, and so they are in a constant war to promote themselves.

Oh yes, that's me, constantly warring to promote myself.

Christians, supposedly, are always asserting things

Oh the irony.

 

[Tnmusicman]

It's not an issue of us not accepting that as an answer. The issue is it's an answer they never give. Christians never say "I don't know" regards questions about origins/evolution.

*sigh* I wasent asking about evolution/orgins. Try reading OP again.

Christian hubris.

doesn't apply here.

 

[pgp_protector]

doesn't apply here.

How can we tell, you wont' give either a link to the question or what the question is that they're answering "I don't know" to.