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Another interesting definition. Death.

Mountainmike

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That doesn’t happen though.
You mean you think it doesn’t, because it’s not consistent with your world view.

Meanwhile read the books eg
bellg, “ near death in ICU”
Rivas et al “ the self does not die”
Van lommel “ consciousness beyond life”
( plus many others)

All books are evidence from medics at the sharp end.
You will be forced to concede it does happen.
Self does not die is entirely veridical ( ie verified) experience where details that the patient cannot have known from brain based consciousness are verified mainly by the medics involved. Indeed the patients were not conscious medically- described as clinically dead/ flat line ECG.

Neurologists increasingly accept the mind cannot just be a function of brain, for other reasons too, not just NDE.
No possibility of other explanation than consciousness beyond brain.

Van lommels longitudinal studies as published in lancet confirm it.
 
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Larniavc

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You mean you think it doesn’t, because it’s not consistent with your world view.
It is inconsistent with the evidence. My world view could be that the universe was burped up by a turtle and it would not change the evidence.
 
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Mountainmike

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It is inconsistent with the evidence. My world view could be that the universe was burped up by a turtle and it would not change the evidence.
Read the evidence first. You clearly haven’t.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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As before, validating such reports is problematic.

Also, cortical evoked potentials, i.e. brain activity in the cortex, can be obtained for several minutes after systemic circulation has ceased.
 
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Derf

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People can be mistaken without being liars. Having said that, it would not surprise me if some are lying, human nature being what it is and all...
The reports from the patients have been verified in some cases by the staff or family members, supposedly. That's a large group to be mistaken, or worse, to be lying.
As before, validating such reports is problematic.

Also, cortical evoked potentials, i.e. brain activity in the cortex, can be obtained for several minutes after systemic circulation has ceased.
So now you're saying the effect is real, just caused by something else?
 
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Larniavc

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Mountainmike

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Yeah, I have. Near Death Experience enthusiasts are all either deluded or liars.
No you haven’t.
By the very nature of your comment, it shows you have neither studied the witnesses nor the evidence. Its not “ enthudiasts” commenting.

You do illustrate the problem.
A priori sceptics discount whatever does not match their philosophy by ritual denial regardless of evidence.

I prefer the evidence of the numerous ED doctors, cardiologists and surgeons who were ACTUALLY there , studied the evidence, corroborated the stories , and performed the studies, to the libellous assumptions of someone was not there, clearly has not researched it and prefers his opinion to the qualified medics.
 
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Mountainmike

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People can be mistaken without being liars. Having said that, it would not surprise me if some are lying, human nature being what it is and all...


Meanwhile , the veridical experiences are corroborated by independent evidence. So the experiencer was not lying.
Residual consciousness does not account for a remote experience, and it provably did not exist in the flat line ECG cases whose reflexes had gone , and pupils were blown. In one case no blood in head at all.

ed doctors such as bellg, and cardiologist van lommel explain all the medical limits of consciousness.

Tell me how does someone with taped eyes, and in some cases blind from birth describe what they saw , which was corroborated at a place which was out of sight?

You use all the usual generalisations which are completely inappropriate to these cases.

For the first time, study them , THEN comment, is a good order!
Explain how your random guesswork applies in the cases the attending medics studied in detail. Tell us why the medics were wrong.
 
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Larniavc

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Let’s see this evidence, then?
 
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NxNW

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No you haven’t.
By the very nature of your comment, it shows you have neither studied the witnesses nor the evidence. Its not “ enthudiasts” commenting.

I have read it extensively, and the facts refute the claims.
 
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NxNW

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Mountainmike

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I have read it extensively, and the facts refute the claims.
They are not MYclaims. they are those of ED doctors , cardiologists and neurologists - People who were there, studied the evidence and could not find explanation other than consciousness away from the brain. If you HAD read them your reply would be far more nuanced, because nobody has any answer to how, even the worst sceptical doctors have no answer that accounts for the cases. So how can you?

Tell me. in the reynolds case - how do you explain her observations, and why do you, who is unqualified to comment and wasnt there , saw none of the blank ECG traces, how do you dare to overrule the medics who understood the case? The arrogance of kneejerk sceptics astounds me.
 
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Mountainmike

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Let’s see this evidence, then?
I gave you the name of three books.
Read them.
Lauren Bellg near death in ICU ilustrates the problem of impossible cases to explain by clinical and medical understanding. Why the "obvious" explanations fail.

"the self does not die" is a book devoted to veridical cases where a second party can verify details that the "experiencer" cannot have known from their vantage point even if they were conscious which many were provably not.

Then van lommel as a practising cardiologist at the sharp end, did the biggest longitudinal study and goes in depth to all the potential explanations and how clinical explanations, treatment differences and pharmacology and neurology fail to explain them.

These are not quacks. They are experienced medics.
And the number is growing ever since Moody / Greysson opened the field up 40 years ago. Whilst there are many long past history cases, even medieaval, the increase in them is easily explained by the fact cardiac arrest is no longer completely fatal because of defibrrilation etc. Some can be brought back to life although not as many as you think..

Read them. There are many other books.
 
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Larniavc

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They are not evidence. They are anecdotal accounts of either liars or the deluded.

What verifiable evidence is there that near death experiences are what they purport to be?
 
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Mountainmike

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They are not evidence. They are anecdotal accounts of either liars or the deluded.

What verifiable evidence is there that near death experiences are what they purport to be?
If you are arrogant enough to call medical doctors attending who verified the details as “liars and deluded” without even reading the case details, There is little point in discussing it. Or indeed there is no point in you going anywhere near a science forum again.
 
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