Another Fossil Transitional Species that shouldn't exist ... Meet Pappochelys

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MikeEnders

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Learn the history before you start lecturing others about it.

You are hereby dismissed. You lost any authority to tell anyone to learn anything due to your inability to deal with reality. Theres just no way around it. the article is cited above and it point blank states what it states contradicting you in SPADES. Be my guess and try to spin anything you want and lecture to get the egg off your face but its to no avail. I'll give my list as well plus nothing will change what scientific American accurately reported.

This is the ridiculousness of Darwinists . Even when it s EXTREMELY clear that biologists took issue with ENCODE because it suggested too much function you simply don't have the right character wiring to admit it.


tsk tsk
 
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The Cadet

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You are hereby dismissed. You lost any authority to tell anyone to learn anything due to your inability to deal with reality. Theres just no way around it. the article is cited above and it point blank states what it states contradicting you in SPADES. Be my guess and try to spin anything you want and lecture to get the egg off your face but its to no avail. I'll give my list as well plus nothing will change what scientific American accurately reported.

This is the ridiculousness of Darwinists . Even when it s EXTREMELY clear that biologists took issue with ENCODE because it suggested too much function you simply don't have the right character wiring to admit it.


tsk tsk

Personally, if I had to put money on positions here, I'd take the legitimate expert in evolutionary biology who knows the history of the field any day of the week. ENCODE 2012 contradicted not only everything we knew previously about the genome but also ENCODE 2011, and for the next year, wildly different numbers were flying around, with numerous bases. It's not a good study to appeal to when talking about genetic function, as the net for what counts as "functional" was cast so wide as to be virtually meaningless.
 
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MikeEnders

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Personally, if I had to put money on positions here, I'd take the legitimate expert in evolutionary biology who knows the history of the field any day of the week.

LOL........What drivel. Did you even think before posting that? The issue you quoted me on is what was the expectation of evolutionary biologists regarding junk dna. ANy sane person would take Scientific American (who...ahem....suddenly,conveniently now is claimed to be unaware of the "history of the field") over a no name forum poster whether he is a biologist or not. Shuck SA isn't the only one to cover that controversy. To dispute what is wildly known as fact is fitting for a Darwinist. they are used to fudging them.......facts that is :)

It also laughable that'd you'd pick the "expert in evolutionary biology" (AKA Forum comrade) as if the entire consortium of scientists connected to ENCODE are outweighed by said no name forum comrade

Desperate (but entertaining!) logic

However thanks for playing - I never mind when the bias of Darwinists are exposed.
 
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MikeEnders

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ENCODE 2012 contradicted not only everything we knew previously about the genome

Considering that study after study after study over the last 10-20 yeas has been finding more and more function in the genome to claim ENCODE contradicts "everything we knew previously" is just another example of the hilarious claims Darwinist try to make against ENCODE.

wildly different numbers were flying around

You always get differing numbers when dealing with something as complex as the genome. Various things to look at , various assumptions and research methodologies.

It's not a good study to appeal to when talking about genetic function, as the net for what counts as "functional" was cast so wide as to be virtually meaningless.

Its fine for what it is and is backed by (and includes) many solid scientists despite darwinists such as yourself trying to paint them as not knowing what they are doing (chiefly because you don't like their conclusions because of your dogma). the hypocrisy of it all is that if it were creationists upset over ENCODE you'd all be posting the EXACT opposite saying we are anti science for taking issue with it.

Finally no one has to (and no one does) hang their hat solely on ENCODE. At this point theres not a year that goes by where almost monthly claims of no function are being debunked.

You can play ostrich if you wish but the trend is obvious. Vestigial and Junk DNA claims do VERY poorly with more time and research
 
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The Cadet

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LOL........What drivel. Did you even think before posting that? The issue you quoted me on is what was the expectation of evolutionary biologists regarding junk dna. ANy sane person would take Scientific American (who...ahem....suddenly,conveniently now is claimed to be unaware of the "history of the field") over a no name forum poster whether he is a biologist or not. Shuck SA isn't the only one to cover that controversy. To dispute what is wildly known as fact is fitting for a Darwinist. they are used to fudging them.......facts that is :)

It also laughable that'd you'd pick the "expert in evolutionary biology" (AKA Forum comrade) as if the entire consortium of scientists connected to ENCODE are outweighed by said no name forum comrade

Desperate (but entertaining!) logic

However thanks for playing - I never mind when the bias of Darwinists are exposed.

Again, you are citing ENCODE 2012. ENCODE 2012 is kind of a mess. It asserts that any gene that is transcribed has function. This is not a rational way of determining "function". This is like saying that if you hit me with a car, my kiester has the "function" of denting your hood. That's not a meaningful definition of "function" in any way, shape, or form.

http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/5/3/578.long

ENCODE considered massive parts of the genome "functional", despite the fact that this includes massive swathes that are not genetically conserved. That's kind of important, because if a function is not genetically conserved, that means it's not important for the organism. It doesn't mean much. You mess with that 1% of genes that codes for proteins, and your "make human" program is screwed; you mess with quite a bit of that 80%, and you can still come out the other side with very few differences. Grauer gave an excellent presentation on just how problematic this is:


Which is worth a look.
 
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Loudmouth

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Beg , fabricate, do whatever you want. Your paper provides no proof that they are psuedogenes and your entire argument rests on there being no function.

They list the frame shift mutations that produce the pseudogenes. That is the proof.

You can't look at a gene and from studying it determine its function or its functionlessness.

Yes, we can. When a stretch of DNA starts accumulating mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift it doesn't have function. If it had function then we would see conservation of sequence due to negative selection of deleterious mutations.

Haven't you learned anything for the last 10-20 years of claiming something was junk DNA and then finding out it isn't?.

90% of the human genome is still considered junk DNA, and that is after tons of research over the last 10-20 years. 90% of the human genome is accumulating mutations at a rate consistent with neutral drift.

Further more in your own darwinist framework frame shift mutations (thats right the same ones you keep repeating over and over as if you have somthing) are claimed to have been the cause of new functions that were then entrenched and conserved for millions of years.

Pseudogenes don't show conservation of sequence which is evidence for a lack of function.

Oh so now YOU are criticizing the normally accepted scientists and accusing them of not being able to explain eh? Thats rich. So you use that rhetoric even on scientists who aren't Creationsts when they say something that doesn't fit what you want them to say eh?.

The normally accepted scientists are the ones saying that the ENCODE paper is oversold function. This is one of those normally accepted scientists.

"Thus, according to the ENCODE Consortium, a biological function can be maintained indefinitely without selection, which implies that at least 80 - 10 = 70% of the genome is perfectly invulnerable to deleterious mutations, either because no mutation can ever occur in these "functional" regions or because no mutation in these regions can ever be deleterious. This absurd conclusion was reached through various means, . . ."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23431001

ENCODE defined "function" as doing something. That isn't function. The trash in your trash can does something when it releases odor molecules into the air. It is still junk. No scientist has ever said that junk DNA should be entirely inert, yet that is how ENCODE tried to define it.

Of course ENCODE was never attempting to pin down functions as no such study could do that effectively. What they got blasted for was just claimng that the high level of activity -

They came right out and said that it was functional.

Sure thats what pseudogenes are. Captain obvious. have you provided any proof that they all are broken genes (in respect to function being all that matters? Nope

The mutations that break the genes have been given.

[qutoe]where did I say broken? I said isn't used for smell. Meanwhile why would it violate any design for designer to create new functions by moving around (frame shifting) what in effect is code?[/quote]

Why would that function be impervious to deleterious mutations?
 
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MikeEnders

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You mess with that 1% of genes that codes for proteins, and your "make human" program is screwed; you mess with quite a bit of that 80%, and you can still come out the other side with very few differences.

That in itself is flawed thinking. Some functions show themselves only in particular situations or exposures. the idea the you can knock out or change an area of the genome and see no difference makes no automatic claim it is junk.

Having read some of the ENCODE scientists in interviews I do think they get misrepresented by rabid darwinist such as yourself and CF comrades. They make no claim to have solved the issue of function (in the terms we are talking of). They merely think it is likely to be much higher and higher than most Darwinists would like.
 
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MikeEnders

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They list the frame shift mutations that produce the pseudogenes. That is the proof.

You can't technically list a mutation you can only note the result of it and no the mere presence of a fame shift doe NOT prove you are looking at a psuedogene for the very fact I stated - your own framework suggest that some operationally functional genes are a PRODUCT of frame shift mutations (in fact your whole evolutionary framework RELIES on mutations to get novel genes - perhaps you should go learn what you adhere to). do you call call all evolved genes pseudogenes? do tell

Yes, we can.

rubbish. precisely the kind of thinking that leads to many designations of junk DNA being wrong. Arrogant Darwinists such as yourself in the face of all evidence to the contrary act like they have the genome all figured out


90% of the human genome is still considered junk DNA, and that is after tons of research over the last 10-20 years

LOL........You mean when you exclude studies you don't like......like ENCODE

The normally accepted scientists are the ones saying that the ENCODE paper is oversold function.

Oh be quiet now. You are getting so ridiculous you are not worth reading. Now the even the non creationist scientists of ENCODE are not "accepted scientists". Thank you for revealing even further your no True Scotsman fallacious reasoning is not limited to creationists but anyone that presents anything you do not like

ENCODE defined "function" as doing something. That isn't function. The trash in your trash can does something when it releases odor molecules into the air.

I have already quoted them and they do NOT claim to have defined each function. they see the activity as indicative of function. Apparently their great sin is that they are not as guided by dogma and are willing to see the possibility of far more function that you wish to be there.


Why would that function be impervious to deleterious mutations?

because the frame shift itself creates new functions which as i have said now for the third time is part of your very own evolutionary framework
 
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