Another Consequence of the Dobbs decision...

[The Barbarian]

My earlier question stands. Are you an anarchist who believes law doesn't matter?

I'm a libertarian who respects the law. So I oppose stupid and/or unpopular laws precisely because they encourage anarchy.

If law doesn't matter why do you care if pro lifers get their way?

I'm pointing out that pro-life has suffered precisely because of Dobbs. Losing referenda on abortion in red states like Kansas and Ohio makes this clear. All the progress we've made over the decades is now being reversed because of Dobbs.

The point is that government is not the answer to social issues like this. Prayer and persuasion worked. Government force does not.

 

[The Barbarian]

There will always be abortion and we won't be able to stop it.

Abortion rates have steadily declined in the decades after Roe v. Wade, but now we're seeing a reversal after Dobbs. In this case, pro-life and libertarian principles coincide.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm a libertarian who respects the law. So I oppose stupid and/or unpopular laws precisely because they encourage anarchy.


I'm pointing out that pro-life has suffered precisely because of Dobbs. Losing referenda on abortion in red states like Kansas and Ohio makes this clear. All the progress we've made over the decades is now being reversed because of Dobbs.

The point is that government is not the answer to social issues like this. Prayer and persuasion worked. Government force does not.

So you consider the outlawing of abortion as stupid and would encourage women to have it illegally?

Also the government is the answer to many social issues. Has been all throughout history. Simply because you don't like your preferred social causes losing doesn't mean we will follow you.

Power will have more of an impact than persuasion ever will. That's just the nature of things. We didn't persuade the Germans to abandon Nazism. We forced them to. So why couldnt we use similar methods against an evil like abortion? You agree with me abortion is ghastly and evil right?

 

[The Barbarian]

So you consider the outlawing of abortion as stupid

I'm noting that it has backfired spectacularly. Dobbs has done more for pro-abortion movements than anything else the Supreme Court could have done.

and would encourage women to have it illegally?

I would encourage them to consider abortion as the death of a child.

Also the government is the answer to many social issues.

More often, it's backfired.

Simply because you don't like your preferred social causes losing doesn't mean we will follow you.

If you favor abortion, you should be happy with Dobbs. I'm not pleased with the results.

Power will have more of an impact than persuasion ever will.

Jesus disagrees. I believe Him.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm noting that it has backfired spectacularly. Dobbs has done more for pro-abortion movements than anything else the Supreme Court could have done.


I would encourage them to consider abortion as the death of a child.


More often, it's backfired.

If you favor abortion, you should be happy with Dobbs. I'm not pleased with the results.

Jesus disagrees. I believe Him.

Do you believe Jesus would advocate for the right to an abortion and use his power to defend abortion?

 

[The Barbarian]

Do you believe Jesus would advocate for the right to an abortion and use his power to defend abortion?

I believe Jesus would oppose any government intervention that would lead people to vote for abortion. Hence He wouldn't support Dobbs.

It may have been well-intentioned, but it backfired.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I believe Jesus would oppose any government intervention that would lead people to vote for abortion. Hence He wouldn't support Dobbs.

It may have been well-intentioned, but it backfired.

So Jesus would support abortion rights and vote for them?

 

[The Barbarian]

I believe Jesus would oppose any government intervention that would lead people to vote for abortion.

So Jesus would support abortion rights and vote for them?

I think we've located the problem, here....

 

[RileyG]

So Jesus would support abortion rights and vote for them?

Jesus would want to help and support all people from womb to tomb. His message is of love, not death and destruction.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I believe Jesus would oppose any government intervention that would lead people to vote for abortion.


I think we've located the problem, here....

Can you answer the question?

 

[The Barbarian]

Can you answer the question?

What about "I believe Jesus would oppose any government intervention that would lead people to vote for abortion" do you not understand?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What about "I believe Jesus would oppose any government intervention that would lead people to vote for abortion" do you not understand?

If voting for abortion reduced abortions, per your claim, would he not want the right to abortion protected? I mean, that is what you desire ultimately, right?

You want abortion to be universally available and to be done for whatever reason a woman desires right?

 

[The Barbarian]

If voting for abortion reduced abortions, per your claim

I'm pointing out that since Roe V. Wade, the abortion rate has been declining for decades, while pro-life opinion has been increasing. After Dobbs, things have turned the other way. Do you not see that red states like Ohio and Kansas have assured abortion will remain legal there, after the Dobbs decision?

would he not want the right to abortion protected?

If He did, he would have approved of the Dobbs decision, because that is what it did for Kansas and Ohio.

You want abortion to be universally available

I would like it to be non-existent. I'm just pointing out that the Dobbs decision means more abortions in the United States.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I'm pointing out that since Roe V. Wade, the abortion rate has been declining for decades, while pro-life opinion has been increasing. After Dobbs, things have turned the other way. Do you not see that red states like Ohio and Kansas have assured abortion will remain legal there, after the Dobbs decision?


If He did, he would have approved of the Dobbs decision, because that is what it did for Kansas and Ohio.

I would like it to be non-existent. I'm just pointing out that the Dobbs decision means more abortions in the United States.

Hold on Barbar. Despite everything you're saying, you do ultimately want to enshrine and protect the right to abortion right? Because you believe Jesus would want this right? Because it would reduce abortion. That's your perspective, right?

That promoting abortion rights and expanding access reduces abortion and therefore as Christians we should support abortion in that way right?

 

[The Barbarian]

Hold on Barbar. Despite everything you're saying, you do ultimately want to enshrine and protect the right to abortion right?

There isn't a right to abortion. You're assuming something that doesn't exist.

Because you believe Jesus would want this right?

Jesus would want there to be fewer abortions. As you see, Dobbs resulted in two red states so far making abortion a constitutional right. If you think He's happy about that, I'd say you don't know much about Him.

That promoting abortion rights and expanding access reduces abortion

I'm showing you that abortion rates fell for decades after Roe V Wade. Then, Dobbs changed that. Now, states are voting to make abortion a right. If you think Jesus approves, I'd say you are wrong. Dobbs is merely virtue signaling.

therefore as Christians we should support abortion in that way right?

You should, as a Christian, oppose anything that encourages abortion. And as you see, Dobbs has already done that.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There isn't a right to abortion. You're assuming something that doesn't exist.

Jesus would want there to be fewer abortions. As you see, Dobbs resulted in two red states so far making abortion a constitutional right. If you think He's happy about that, I'd say you don't know much about Him.


I'm showing you that abortion rates fell for decades after Roe V Wade. Then, Dobbs changed that. Now, states are voting to make abortion a right. If you think Jesus approves, I'd say you are wrong. Dobbs is merely virtue signaling.


You should, as a Christian, oppose anything that encourages abortion. And as you see, Dobbs has already done that.

You're saying there isn't a right to abortion but is that not what you desire and what you believe Jesus wants? If there was a national vote on the issue to universalize abortion rights in the USA, you would vote for such a measure no?

Given that you oppose outlawing abortion why wouldn't you seek to ratify abortion in law since you believe that would have a positive outcome? This is what Jesus wants of us Christians, right? To defend abortion and access to it?

This seems to be your entire position. Given how you believe that outlawing something makes people more likely to do it, we should continue to get rid of all laws which prohibit immorality in general, right?

 

[ralliann]

The GOP would be wise to read the tea leaves and shift from an extreme position. Roe was the compromise we need given the divide over abortion, and the general public is showing the extreme right's position is not viable.

Roe, was about Judges deciding for all states. The overturning of Roe simply put abortion back in the hands of the people. Roe took that away. So these decisions are as it was before, let voters decide. Nobody banned abortion before Roe, other than the voters (dem and reps). Now also voters are unbanning it state by state. The GOP, did not ban abortion, Voters from BOTH PARTIES did. Roe banned people from voting (both parties) yay or nay state by state.

 

[ralliann]

The GOP would be wise to read the tea leaves and shift from an extreme position. Roe was the compromise we need given the divide over abortion, and the general public is showing the extreme right's position is not viable.

What extreme position? The notion that Roe was overturned automatically banned abortion is false, a lie. Roe being overturned is not a ban on abortion, because there never was a ban on abortion in the first place. It was up to voters, before Roe, and it is back to the voters after Roe. Giving each the right to their conscience in the matter. So, it is the "tea leaves" show today's voters want abortion. But certain states will limit it more than others. Drop the false narrative of what was in the past, was all because of the GOP. Democrats and republican voters in the past voted down abortion. Now voters will vote it in. Simple. So "read the leaves" honestly hey. this enshrining in the state constitution is just a farce, to support "the falsehood" of some GOP ban, before Roe. A lie...