Another Consequence of the Dobbs decision...

[The Barbarian]

Is the right thing supporting your pro choice policy position?

If you're pro-choice, then one of us is. Is that the problem? If so, I can see why you like Dobbs; it's started to reverse all the gains pro-life has made over the decades since Roe v. Wade.

And now...

The end of ‘Roe v. Wade’ actually caused abortions to increase over the last 12 months—just in different places​

The end of 'Roe v. Wade' actually caused abortions to increase over the last 12 months—just in different places

The report from the Society of Family Planning found the number fell to nearly zero in states with the strictest bans — but higher in states close to them.

fortune.com

Ohio Voters Overwhelmingly Approve Amendment Enshrining Abortion in State Constitution​

Ohio Voters Overwhelmingly Approve Amendment Enshrining Abortion in State Constitution

The Ohio Catholic Conference, which represents the state’s bishops, strongly opposed the amendment. Ohio voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot referendum that adds a new right to “reproductive freedom,” including abortion and contraception, to the state constitution on Tuesday, Nov. 7. With...

www.christianforums.com

Voters in Kansas decide to keep abortion legal in the state, rejecting an amendment​

https://www.npr.org/sections/2022-live-primary-election-race-results/2022/08/02/1115317596/kansas-voters-abortion-legal-reject-constitutional-amendment

Prayer and persuasion brought abortion rates down to less than pre-Roe v Wade levels. Now, after Dobbs, that progress is being reversed. Yes, you get a victory lap for "winning." But the result will be more unborn dying.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you're pro-choice, then one of us is. Is that the problem? If so, I can see why you like Dobbs; it's started to reverse all the gains pro-life has made over the decades since Roe v. Wade.

And now...

The end of ‘Roe v. Wade’ actually caused abortions to increase over the last 12 months—just in different places​

The end of 'Roe v. Wade' actually caused abortions to increase over the last 12 months—just in different places

The report from the Society of Family Planning found the number fell to nearly zero in states with the strictest bans — but higher in states close to them.

fortune.com

Ohio Voters Overwhelmingly Approve Amendment Enshrining Abortion in State Constitution​

Ohio Voters Overwhelmingly Approve Amendment Enshrining Abortion in State Constitution

The Ohio Catholic Conference, which represents the state’s bishops, strongly opposed the amendment. Ohio voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot referendum that adds a new right to “reproductive freedom,” including abortion and contraception, to the state constitution on Tuesday, Nov. 7. With...

www.christianforums.com

Voters in Kansas decide to keep abortion legal in the state, rejecting an amendment​

https://www.npr.org/sections/2022-live-primary-election-race-results/2022/08/02/1115317596/kansas-voters-abortion-legal-reject-constitutional-amendment

Prayer and persuasion brought abortion rates down to less than pre-Roe v Wade levels. Now, after Dobbs, that progress is being reversed. Yes, you get a victory lap for "winning." But the result will be more unborn dying.

If we outlawed abortion completely. Would that increase or decrease abortions in your opinion? Or do you believe laws when they are enforces don't affect people or their behavior?

 

[The Barbarian]

If we outlawed abortion completely.

If pigs had wings... let's stay with reality for a bit, O.K.?

Would that increase or decrease abortions in your opinion?

I'm noticing that since many states outlawed abortion completely, abortion rates have risen. Worship God, not government. Notice that voters in blue states like Ohio and Kansas are now voting pro-abortion as a result of Dobbs.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If pigs had wings... let's stay with reality for a bit, O.K.?

I'm noticing that since many states outlawed abortion completely, abortion rates have risen. Worship God, not government. Notice that voters in blue states like Ohio and Kansas are now voting pro-abortion as a result of Dobbs.

Hold on. You don't believe law matters and people freely disregard it? Why would completely outlawing abortion, throughout the whole USA. Which is the pro life goal. Lead to more abortion?

Or is that you being pro abortion want and desire the right to abort to always be there?

 

[The Barbarian]

Don't be so sure that it can't be ratified.

Many pollsters thought that the voters would vote against making abortion a right in their state's constitution, but they were wrong.

Members of society follow the immoral trends of the moment, not realizing that returning to freedom and morality are very difficult
and painful.

The people of Kansas and Ohio were, I think, rebelling against the attempt by the Supreme Court to legislate. The fact that a number of justices, who got confirmed after declaring Roe v. Wade was settled law, made it clear that they weren't honest about that, probably riled a lot of people who might not otherwise have voted to support abortion.

Just 47% of adults in Gallup’s survey expressed even some trust in the judicial branch of the federal government, a stunning 20-point drop over the last two years and a 7-point drop from last year. As Gallup’s Jeffrey M. Jones notes: “The judicial branch’s tarnished image contrasts with trust levels exceeding two-thirds in most years in Gallup’s trend that began in 1972.”

And it’s not just trust where the judicial branch is badly lagging its historic image. Just 4 in 10 Americans said they approve of the way the Supreme Court is handling its job, while 58% disapprove. That matches the lowest approval rating Gallup has ever recorded for the Supreme Court.

The court, simply put, is at its lowest ebb in terms of public opinion in the history of Gallup polling.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/politics/supreme-court-trust-gallup-poll/index.html

The fact that Justice Clarence Thomas was caught taking gifts from people who had interests in cases before the Court surely didn't help. But that isn't the whole story. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The people of Kansas and Ohio were, I think, rebelling against the attempt by the Supreme Court to legislate. The fact that a number of justices, who got confirmed after declaring Roe v. Wade was settled law, made it clear that they weren't honest about that, probably riled a lot of people who might not otherwise have voted to support abortion.

Just 47% of adults in Gallup’s survey expressed even some trust in the judicial branch of the federal government, a stunning 20-point drop over the last two years and a 7-point drop from last year. As Gallup’s Jeffrey M. Jones notes: “The judicial branch’s tarnished image contrasts with trust levels exceeding two-thirds in most years in Gallup’s trend that began in 1972.”

And it’s not just trust where the judicial branch is badly lagging its historic image. Just 4 in 10 Americans said they approve of the way the Supreme Court is handling its job, while 58% disapprove. That matches the lowest approval rating Gallup has ever recorded for the Supreme Court.

The court, simply put, is at its lowest ebb in terms of public opinion in the history of Gallup polling.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/politics/supreme-court-trust-gallup-poll/index.html

The fact that Justice Clarence Thomas was caught taking gifts from people who had interests in cases before the Court surely didn't help. But that isn't the whole story. It's going to get worse before it gets better.

Again. You seem to believe that law as a whole is ineffective yet I know there are laws you would endorse. Why would you be opposed to universally outlawing abortion unless you believe there is an intrinsic right to murder children in the womb?

Also, why does it matter if some of the plebs are riled up? People conform to power and that's why you never surrender it to your enemies. So why would Christians surrender power to you?

 

[The Barbarian]

Hold on. You don't believe law matters and people freely disregard it?

If you keep making up stories about what I believe, you're going to continue to struggle here.

Why would completely outlawing abortion, throughout the whole USA.

Not going to happen. That would require a constitutional amendment. Federal intervention in things left to the states can be justified under the Interstate Commerce clause, but that wouldn't work for an abortion operation working purely in one state.

As you see, something much less stringent in terms of government action against abortion, has resulted in higher abortion rates. You have way too much faith in government and way too little faith in God.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If you keep making up stories about what I believe, you're going to continue to struggle here.


Not going to happen. That would require a constitutional amendment. Federal intervention in things left to the states can be justified under the Interstate Commerce clause, but that wouldn't work for an abortion operation working purely in one state.

As you see, something much less stringent in terms of government action against abortion, has resulted in higher abortion rates. You have way too much faith in government and way too little faith in God.

If you had the choice personally to outlaw all abortion. Would you do it?

 

[The Barbarian]

If you had the choice personally to outlaw all abortion. Would you do it?

If I had the choice to personally stop all abortion, I'd do it. But since the evidence indicates outlawing it in the United States has led to more abortions, I would not want more abortions on my conscience. Again, you put too much faith in government and not enough faith in God. As you just learned, prayer and persuasion brought abortion rates down below pre-Roe levels. Dobbs reversed that progress. Again, winning should mean less to you than saving lives.

 

[The Barbarian]

I actually love it when progressives go ahead and claim that anti-abortion legislation is the primary cause of abortion, and that the only way to end abortion is to fully legalize it.

Oddly enough, after Roe v. Wade, the abortion rate dropped year after year. Finally, it fell below pre-Roe levels. It wasn't legalization; it was prayer and persuasion. And it works. Government force didn't work.

I realize that among those for whom the state is god, that's blasphemy. But it's also true.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If I had the choice to personally stop all abortion, I'd do it. But since the evidence indicates outlawing it in the United States has led to more abortions, I would not want more abortions on my conscience. Again, you put too much faith in government and not enough faith in God. As you just learned, prayer and persuasion brought abortion rates down below pre-Roe levels. Dobbs reversed that progress. Again, winning should mean less to you than saving lives.

So outlawing abortion universally would lead to even more abortions by your reckoning?

Is this the case for all laws or just laws which outlaw abortion?

 

[The Barbarian]

There are so many problems with your arguments, but let's start with this: Do you understand that Dobbs is not a matter of force?

It merely authorizes the states to use force. Which turns out to be enough to reverse the decline in abortions, which are now rising.

To move from a Federal right to the absence of a Federal right is a decrease in (governmental) force.

Segregationists made that argument back during the Civil Rights Era. But giving the states a blank check to use force is not a move to freedom.

 

[The Barbarian]

So outlawing abortion universally would lead to even more abortions by your reckoning?

Giving pigs functional wings would allow them to fly. But let's stay with reality here. Abortion is not going to be universally outlawed for Constitution reasons. There's just not support for it. Notice even red states are rebelling against such a move.

 

[The Barbarian]

Is this the case for all laws or just laws which outlaw abortion?

It's the case for laws that are not accepted as legitimate by most citizens. It's always like that.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Giving pigs functional wings would allow them to fly. But let's stay with reality here. Abortion is not going to be universally outlawed for Constitution reasons. There's just not support for it. Notice even red states are rebelling against such a move.

You're not answering the question because you know the answer. If you believe law is so ineffective, why aren't you an anarchist in regards to all laws? Wouldn't murder decrease if we made it legal on your view?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's the case for laws that are not accepted as legitimate by most citizens. It's always like that.

And you think outlawing abortion would never be regarded as legitimate? Do you know how power actually works?

 

[The Barbarian]

You're not answering the question because you know the answer. If you believe law is so ineffective, why aren't you an anarchist in regards to all laws? Wouldn't murder decrease if we made it legal on your view?

Laws that lack public support are always evaded. It's the nature of people to resent being pushed around.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Laws that lack public support are always evaded. It's the nature of people to resent being pushed around.

Except they're not. Nor is that always true. Laws which are enforced and reinforced with either soft or hard power are generally obeyed and people conform to them.

 

[The Barbarian]

Laws that lack public support are always evaded. It's the nature of people to resent being pushed around.

Except they're not.

Are Unpopular Laws Enforceable? Understanding Jury Nullification

Consider marijuana laws. People generally have come to see them as unreasonable, and they were widely ignored in many places.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Laws that lack public support are always evaded. It's the nature of people to resent being pushed around.


Are Unpopular Laws Enforceable? Understanding Jury Nullification

Consider marijuana laws. People generally have come to see them as unreasonable, and they were widely ignored in many places.

Yeah laws will be evaded but people on the whole tend to conform themselves to law over time if it is maintained via hard and soft power (the latter being basically propaganda).

If the hard power falters in the case of weed, then yeah, people will ignore the law because there are no consequences to breaking the law.

My earlier question stands. Are you an anarchist who believes law doesn't matter? If law doesn't matter why do you care if pro lifers get their way? There will always be abortion and we won't be able to stop it. So you win either way.