Another artefact

[parousia70]

The Zionist state today is also not a perfect picture of God's promise. But now there are Messianic Jews in Israel that can claim the promise with all that it means. It is because of them that all other claims are now null and void.

There's a fly in that ointment. The Messianic Jews there now can in no way prove they are genetic descendants of the pre desolation Hebrews that God gave the land to, making their claim null and void as well, until they can provide such proof.

And the Kicker is, you and I have as much Abrahamic/Jacobian DNA in us as does ANY Messianic Jew anywhere today, so, from a strictly genetic perspective, every person on earth today has the same God given rights to the land as anyone else.

It's a BIG club, and we're all in it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Seems to be the subtle insinuation

Was the insinuation yours? There is no discussion of a "land claim" in the article, which is pretty factual and nonpolitical.

Where did "Another ancient land claim artefact found In Israel." come from?

An intact Roman-era lamp, while amazing for a schoolkid discovery, is not of any great importance. You can easily buy them for a few hundred dollars.

 

[Tuur]

Well, if were going to accept that source, then given the historical claims with in it, we should give "Israel" back to the Canaanites as the Israelites stole it from them.

Actually, using that as a source, the One who made the land said the Canaanites had lost claim to it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Actually, using that as a source, the One who made the land said the Canaanites had lost claim to it.

Does that mean that Honda can give me my old car back?

 

[Tuur]

Does that mean that Honda can give me my old car back?

Do you want it?

 

[timothyu]

Back in the day they would just rub the lamp to see what happens

 

[parousia70]

Back in the day they would just rub the lamp to see what happens

There is enough of my 12 year old self still inside me, that I would have probably done that, had I found it, just for fun

 

[Hans Blaster]

Do you want it?

If they made, isn't it theirs to determine ownership of? (At least that's the claim I heard last.)

 

[Tuur]

If they made, isn't it theirs to determine ownership of? (At least that's the claim I heard last.)

When Honda made it, they sold the rights to it. There's no statement in the bible that God has transferred rights to what He created. A strong argument that we actually own nothing material is that we leave all that is material when we die.

Now, if you don't accept the bible, all this will sound like nothing but foolishness. Then why make an argument on what you think is foolishness?

 

[parousia70]

When Honda made it, they sold the rights to it. There's no statement in the bible that God has transferred rights to what He created.

So He didn’t really “give” the land to the Hebrews then? He just let them use it temporarily?

A strong argument that we actually own nothing material is that we leave all that is material when we die.

I would tend to agree, however you can’t really accept that argument and argue that God gave the land to the Hebrews as an everlasting possession, simultaneously.

Which one are you arguing?

 

[mindlight]

There's a fly in that ointment. The Messianic Jews there now can in no way prove they are genetic descendants of the pre desolation Hebrews that God gave the land to, making their claim null and void as well, until they can provide such proof.

And the Kicker is, you and I have as much Abrahamic/Jacobian DNA in us as does ANY Messianic Jew anywhere today, so, from a strictly genetic perspective, every person on earth today has the same God given rights to the land as anyone else.

It's a BIG club, and we're all in it.

That contradicts the bible's message about the end times though as there are still people regarded as Jews at that time. Also since Moses's wife and David's grandma were gentiles there has always been an element of interbreeding but that does not distract from the continuity of the people and the promises made to them. Somebody with the genetic link, the belonging to the Jewish community and a living relationship with God through Jesus can claim those promises given to Abraham.

 

[Hans Blaster]

When Honda made it, they sold the rights to it. There's no statement in the bible that God has transferred rights to what He created. A strong argument that we actually own nothing material is that we leave all that is material when we die.

Now, if you don't accept the bible, all this will sound like nothing but foolishness. Then why make an argument on what you think is foolishness?

OF course it sounds like foolishness. It sounded like foolishness to me as a Christian. I only want you to see it too.

 

[mindlight]

So another religious claim with no legal standing.

Whose law?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Whose law?

International law and treaties. (It's the best that can be done without a unified global sovereignty.)

 

[parousia70]

That contradicts the bible's message about the end times though as there are still people regarded as Jews at that time.

Unless these times aren't the Biblical end times, then there's no contradiction.

Somebody with the genetic link, the belonging to the Jewish community and a living relationship with God through Jesus can claim those promises given to Abraham.

Which again, genetically, would mean all Christians everywhere can legitimately make that claim.

 

[mindlight]

However, If these times aren't the Biblical end times, then there's no contradiction.

Which again, genetically, would mean all Christians everywhere can legitimately make that claim.

There cannot be a physical continuity in the end times without there also being one now. Since the references to Jews is clear in the end times then they must also exist today in a format that God accepts and recognizes. So that argument makes no sense. Anyway, the bible always speaks in terms of being ready for Jesus to come back right now.

Races are not as mixed and especially in the case of Jews as that and the cultural inheritance and that of the particular promise of the land is clearly not with all peoples.

But the main objection to this is the theological one. Books like that of James were clearly directed to a mainly Jewish church which is probably why the anti-Semitic Martin Luther hated it so much. The Byzantines forgot this basic tension between the Universal Church and the particular people of the Jews and just advocated replacement theology as you do today. But they seemed instead to provoke heretics and a Jewish diaspora in Arab lands that contributed to the Arian heresy of Islam and the Nestorian one of much of the Eastern church focused on Persia at that time. It has been a long time coming, and there has been much suffering on the way, including the holocaust but finally, the church has reevaluated its stand and reverted to the tensions that existed in the original church between the particular people of the Jews and the many peoples from every nation of the church. Israel has returned in fulfillment of prophecy and there is a sizeable community of Jews that know Jesus living in the land right now. These people can claim the promise and being recipients of the redemption that came from the cross cannot lose the promise.

 

[parousia70]

There cannot be a physical continuity in the end times without there also being one now. Since the references to Jews is clear in the end times then they must also exist today in a format that God accepts and recognizes. So that argument makes no sense.

Well, unless of course the Biblical End times are behind us. Then the reality of a lack of physical contunity today poses no theological problem at all and makes perfect sense.

Anyway, the bible always speaks in terms of being ready for Jesus to come back right now.

Which would make no sense to the original receivers if it applies to today only. Are there any other scriptures you also believe did not apply to the original receivers and only apply to us today?

Races are not as mixed and especially in the case of Jews as that and the cultural inheritance and that of the particular promise of the land is clearly not with all peoples.

The reality of genetic ubiquity among all peoples of earth today is a mathematical fact, whether you ignore it or not:
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Infact, it happens so quickly, that EVERY person today who's grandparents were native to the European Continent came from ONE single common ancestor from just 600 years ago:
Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

Israel has returned in fulfillment of prophecy

Which prophesy would that be?

and there is a sizeable community of Jews that know Jesus living in the land right now. These people can claim the promise and being recipients of the redemption that came from the cross cannot lose the promise.

Yet, There is not a single one of them who can demonstrate with any facts that they have any more Abrahamic/Jacobian blood than you or I.
Not even ONE.

Are you of the mind that we should uncritically accept the claim of anyone who makes it?

Anybody at all can move to Israel and Say "I am A Jew" and it fulfills the prophesy about "Israel Returning"?
Is this what you believe?
Really?

 

[timothyu]

Somebody with the genetic link, the belonging to the Jewish community and a living relationship with God through Jesus can claim those promises given to Abraham.

The Land was given to all of the House of Israel, not just Jews. And as we saw repeatedly in the Bible, the Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Even renaming Judah to now be Israel is odd considering the Jew/Levite only mentality.

 

[Tuur]

OF course it sounds like foolishness. It sounded like foolishness to me as a Christian. I only want you to see it too.

What is foolishness? That God gave the Israelites Canaan, or that they still have a claim?

 

[Tuur]

So He didn’t really “give” the land to the Hebrews then? He just let them use it temporarily?

I would tend to agree, however you can’t really accept that argument and argue that God gave the land to the Hebrews as an everlasting possession, simultaneously.

Which one are you arguing?

First, is it God's right to allow someone to use what He has created? Whether or not that's temporary or conditional depends on what God has said. We see where God gave Canaan to the Israelites, but can we see where God has revoked that?