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Annihilationism

Aussie Pete

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I must be a party of 'one,' then, because I consider myself an Annihiliationist AND I believe people who remain separated from Christ in this life will find themselves in Hades (whatever that really is ...)

Moreover, I'm an Annihilationist because of my hermeneutical approach to the Bible, not due to a sensitive emotional grievance that some other human beings will end up in Hades.
Fair enough. I have not seen anything in the Bible that suggests annihilation. But I will not make an issue out of it. I have unanswered questions myself. But somethings God has kept hidden from me. That's fine, we will all know all things sooner or later.
 
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Albion

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I think the term 'unorthodox' or, better yet, 'unconventional' would be a better term to ascribe to Annihilationism.

I agree that something would probably be a better term, but this is the one that's in use, and although people can use the word in a non-religious sense, it is well-travelled and has recognized boundaries.

The "problem" is that most people who have no particular interest in religious cults are familiar with the word but not familiar with the definition.

"Unorthodox" or "Unconventional" to my mind are inadequate since they don't refer to anything in particular...and they leave open all sorts of doctrinal debates that have nothing to do with what a religious/theological cult is.

These are "unconventional" to be sure, but so are the Amish and various other minority denominations within Christianity; and they aren't cults in the sense we're talking about.
 
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BobRyan

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I don't see the issue as a debt. All the sins of all mankind have already been paid for.

Matt 18 describes it as a debt

32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” (NASB)​

Christ said that "repay all" is the result - not "never repay the debt owed"

Co 2:14-15 describes it as a debt.
13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)

Luke 12 describes it as "exact debt" where different people owe a different debt rather than "infinite for all and never paid in full"
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.​


We all agree in this life that "unbelievers are dead in trespass and sin" - as was Lazarus before he was converted. And yet "Lazarus is dead" did not mean "dead in tresspass and sin" in John 11.

Paying the debt does not make them alive.

Indeed it does not. When the lost sinner pays his own debt in hell it is not "Gospel atonement" and it is not "restorative" it is a debt he cannot survive. When a murderer pays his debt in full via execution - his debt is paid in full but he does not "survive" that payment. This concept is fully consistent with reality that we see every day.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I agree that something would probably be a better term, but this is the one that's in use and although people use the word in a non-religious sense, it is well-travelled and has recognized boundaries. The "problem" is that most people who have no particular interest in religious cults are familiar with the word but not familiar with the definition.
Yeah, I get the semantic usage; it's kind of like the usage that the term "race" is put to by various people still yet today. It doesn't mean any one thing really well, but however it's used, underlying it is the reigning social paradigm that wrestles against racism.

""Unorthodox" or "Unconventional" to my mind are inadequate since they don't refer to anything in particular and leave open all sorts of doctrinal debates taht have nothing to do with what a religious cult is. These are of course "unconventional," but so are the Amish and various other minority denominations within Christianity and they aren't cults in the sense we're talking about.

Frankly, I really detest being plied with a term like "cultic" since it carries too much extra semantic and ideological baggage that...I don't think applies to me.
 
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Albion

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True and by grouping Christianity and the Manson Family together (due to the technical precise definition of the term "cult") it makes it appear that Christianity has no more value than the Manson family.

Personally, I find that to be a contrivance. There are all sorts of words in our language that, in common usage, have more than one possible meaning. We learn the differences. We do not eliminate some word simply because the people described don't care for it.

For example, the Roman Catholic Church is a denomination even though she likes to think she is above that and assigns her own meaning to the word denomination. Protestant churches are actually churches, whether or not some other church would like to reserve the word church for itself. And so on.

And as said before, the word in the sense of Christian doctrinal extremism does have boundaries, so anyone who thinks using it in a sloppy or prejudicial manner is wrong has a valid point. However, that's a different issue.
 
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BobRyan

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I think the term 'unorthodox' or, better yet, 'unconventional' would be a better one to ascribe to Annihilationism. Designating it as 'cultic' is a bit heavy-handed in my estimation.

It is "technically correct" (at least at some point) since even Christianity itself meets the technical definition of "a cult" and has its own cultic leader.

But in modern use it has the pejorative meaning of a non-Christian group mindlessly following a flawed leader. It is "popular usage" of the term conflating with the technical fact that by definition any Christian group you might name could also correctly and accurately be called "a cult" that is the not-so-subtle trick being used there.

Personally, I find that to be a contrivance. There are all sorts of words in out language that, in common usage, have diverse meanings.

It is true that people "could" use the term conflated with its common use to reference an actual non-Christian group mindlessly following a leader - but that "begs the point" because the pejorative is used without providing the evidence for it. Just tossing out pejorative labels sans any fact to back it up, merely reflects one's own bias and says nothing "Factual" about the actual group that is being labeled.

"proof by labeling" is emotionally effective in some contexts - but a lot of people find it to be "lacking" substantive argument if left that way.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It is "technically correct" (at least at some point) since even Christianity itself meets the technical definition of "a cult" and has its own cultic leader.

But in modern use it has the pejorative meaning of a non-Christian group mindlessly following a flawed leader. It is "popular usage" of the term conflating with the technical fact that by definition any Christian group you might name could also correctly and accurately be called "a cult" that is the not-so-subtle trick being used there.

Yeah, I agree. And it seems people all too easily reach for a term in a slap-dash manner to quickly apply to whatever it is that they feel they have a knee-jerk, emotional reaction against (i.e. before they even attempt to understand all of the nuances of what that "other" point of view might actually encapsulate).
 
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Albion

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Yeah, I get the semantic usage; it's kind of like the usage that the term "race" is put to by various people still yet today. It doesn't mean any one thing really well, but however it's used, underlying it is the reigning social paradigm that wrestles against racism.

You probably wouldn't like being called a heretic, either, right? I don't.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You probably wouldn't like being called a heretic, either, right? I don't.

That's right! Which is why I don't go around using that term frequently either. :dontcare:
 
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BobRyan

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For example, the Roman Catholic Church is a denomination even though she likes to think she is above that and assigns her own meaning to the word denomination. Protestant churches are actually churches, whether or not some other church would like to reserve the word church for itself. And so on.

Agreed - but neither "denomination" nor "church" have a pejorative meaning. When someone lists "Christian denominations" and "Catholic" or "Roman Catholic Church" shows up in the list - almost no one considers that to be a "bad thing" being said about the Catholic Church.

By contrast "here is a list of cults" and then include "Roman Catholic Church" would be very pejorative even though in the technical use of the term - it is correct.
 
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BobRyan

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That's right! Which is why I don't go around using that term frequently either. :dontcare:

Indeed "proof by labeling" is a common practice for some but is not very useful as a substantive statement of fact or proof that one might rely on.
 
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Freth

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The wages of sin is death.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Malachi 4:1-4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​
 
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BobRyan

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The 'wages of sin' indeed is death. Sin merits extinction. Death is an appropriate consequence of sin.

agreed.

But whether or not it is administered by God is what we are talking about here.

I disagree. Almost all on both sides agree that God sending the Lake of Fire and brimstone in Rev 20 after the great white throne judgment in that chapter - is indeed an act of God... not an act of the Devil or an act of man.

What is more Christ said "so shall My heavenly Father do to you IF..." -- when Christ speaks of that final punishment in Matt 18.


Matt 18 describes it as a debt being paid -- and God is the one enforcing the payment

32 Then summoning him, his master *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his master, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.” (NASB)
So also in Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

"throwing someone into" a lake of fire and brimstone is not the willful act of the one "being thrown" -- it is the act of the person doing the judging and throwing.

Rev 14
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

It is not "the wine of the wrath of sinful man against himself" but rather the wrath of God
 
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DavidPT

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Depends on what precisely you mean. The Resurrected body (which all will receive, the glorified and the damned) can not cease to exist and is immortal, and the matter from which our bodies are now made while it will break down after severance with the soul (which is death in the primary sense) it also does not cease to exist.

This passage refers to the eternal death though which is not a cessation of existence but in the soul a deprivation of living of God and in the body misery and pain. This is the final state of the damned, and it is rightly called destruction.


From what I can tell about your position, the soul is immortal from the very beginning. I don't know what Scriptures you are using though in order to conclude that? I don't recall ever seeing any Scriptures informing us that the soul is immortal myself. As to the body, it obviously isn't immortal from the very beginning. By the very beginning I'm meaning from the beginning of it's existance, if that makes any sense.

What is a fact though, everyone, both the saved and the lost will be resurrected bodily. What is also a fact is that the saved recieve an immortal body, a body which can not die. What is not a fact is that the lost also receive an immortal body, a body which can not die. The reason why we know this is because the wages of sin is death not life instead. And that the book of Revelation calls it the 2nd death not the 2nd life instead. There is a 2nd life life though, and it does apply to both the saved and the lost, except the saved get to live longer than the lost do.

It would like like this per the saved.

This person is born and then lives for awhile---the first life
This person then dies---the first death
This person then lives again---this time for forever


It would like like this per the lost.

This person is born and then lives for awhile---the first life
This person then dies---the first death
This person then lives again---only temporarily
This person then dies again---the second death--thus why this person only lives during the 2nd life temporarily, because if this person instead lived forever, this wouldn't be applicable to him or her---the 2nd death.
 
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BobRyan

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From what I can tell about your position, the soul is immortal from the very beginning. I don't know what Scriptures you are using though in order to conclude that? I don't recall ever seeing any Scriptures informing us that the soul is immortal myself. As to the body, it obviously isn't immortal from the very beginning. By the very beginning I'm meaning from the beginning of it's existance, if that makes any sense.

What is a fact though, everyone, both the saved and the lost will be resurrected bodily. What is also a fact is that the saved recieve an immortal body, a body which can not die. What is not a fact is that the lost also receive an immortal body, a body which can not die. The reason why we know this is because the wages of sin is death not life instead. And that the book of Revelation calls it the 2nd death not the 2nd life instead. There is a 2nd life life though, and it does apply to both the saved and the lost, except the saved get to live longer than the lost do.

It would like like this per the saved.

This person is born and then lives for awhile---the first life
This person then dies---the first death
This person then lives again---this time for forever


It would like like this per the lost.

This person is born and then lives for awhile---the first life
This person then dies---the first death
This person then lives again---only temporarily
This person then dies again---the second death--thus why this person only lives during the 2nd life temporarily, because if this person instead lived forever, this wouldn't be applicable to him or her---the 2nd death.

I agree with you but there are three things to consider

1. Matt 10:28 -- in this life they can "kill the body but not the soul". In the next life "both" body and soul are destroyed in fiery hell as a result of the judgment of God. ("The soul that sins will die" Ezek 18:4 - in that chapter only the wicked die... the righteous do not die -- which means it is speaking only of the second death)

2. While it is true that in 2 Cor 5:1-3 the present body is decaying and "returns to dust" as we see in Gen 3 (and in 1 Cor 15) -- yet in 1 Thess 4:13-18 we are told that those who have died have a soul that is "dormant" - "asleep" according to the text (rather than non-existent). "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him" John 11

3. With your statement about the non-immortal soul and the part in point #2 in my list - it means there can be no such thing as "prayers to the dead or for the dead". Which is going to be a problem for certain Christian groups.
 
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Annihilationism seems like a swift and merciful fate in contrast to the following.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
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BobRyan

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Annihilationism seems like a swift and merciful fate in contrast to the following.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

in Rev 20:10 it is the devil (Satan, the devil in Rev 12) and the false prophet (which is a symbol for something in the book of Revelation) that do the suffering "day and night forever and ever". If we limit the discussion to just humans - then we have to go to the 3 angel's messages in Rev 14 - where we find this in the third angel's message.

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

So the "only place" where this phrase about "torment..forever" is specifically applied to humans is in Rev 14 and there it is the "smoke ascending up" forever. What is more the entire process of that smoke ascending up forever happens "IN the presence" of the Lamb and not only that - but also "in the presence" of the Angels. They are all stuck there at the brink of hell for as long as one might suppose this to last. With the wicked torment ascending up "in their presence".

What is more - Rev 14 starts off with a description of the 144,000 who are also with the Lamb at that time.

Rev 14
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

So then they two are stuck at the brink of hell for the entire duration of it.

As for Rev 14 "smoke ascending up forever" -- John is borrowing an OT term for a finite event already known to his reader.

Is 34:

8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
...
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Weeds and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And a habitat of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The goat also will cry to its kind.
Yes, the night-bird will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
15 The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.​

John is using the same "Smoke goes up forever and ever" term in Rev 14 as his readers already knew about in Is 34 - describing a finite event where animals then later come to find a dwelling place in the very area said to have smoke going up forever and ever.
 
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DavidPT

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Annihilationism seems like a swift and merciful fate in contrast to the following.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


As to me my opinion concerning that differs from my opinion concerning humans cast into the LOF. Revelation 20 involves 2 separate judgments. Actually 3 if we factor in Revelation 19:20. As to those in Revelation 20:10, none of them are meaning humans. None of them have ever died then needed to be resurrected in order to live again. This means that a first death is not applicable to them which then means, neither is a second death. As a matter of fact, nowhere in Revelation 20:10 is the 2nd death being applied to anyone in that verse to begin with. That verse mentions zero about a 2nd death.

As to the great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, the 2nd death is being applied to them. What is not being applied to them is this---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Nowhere in those verses does it ever say that anyone in verses 11-15 shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Therefore, I conclude that satan, his angels, the beast and false prophet, they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. While those recorded in verse 11-15 will experience the 2nd death instead, meaning they eventually die in the LOF, as in, as if they had never existed, meaning once they die.
 
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DavidPT

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I agree with you but there are three things to consider

1. Matt 10:28 -- in this life they can "kill the body but not the soul". In the next life "both" body and soul are destroyed in fiery hell as a result of the judgment of God. ("The soul that sins will die" Ezek 18:4 - in that chapter only the wicked die... the righteous do not die -- which means it is speaking only of the second death)

2. While it is true that in 2 Cor 5:1-3 the present body is decaying and "returns to dust" as we see in Gen 3 (and in 1 Cor 15) -- yet in 1 Thess 4:13-18 we are told that those who have died have a soul that is "dormant" - "asleep" according to the text (rather than non-existent). "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him" John 11

3. With your statement about the non-immortal soul and the part in point #2 in my list - it means there can be no such thing as "prayers to the dead or for the dead". Which is going to be a problem for certain Christian groups.


As to number 3, one shouldn't be praying to the dead to begin with, regardless whether they might be soul sleeping or not soul sleeping. So I already see it as problem, either way. These other certain Christian groups though, they are not going to see it as a problem unless they changed their mind and decided soul sleeping is what what the Bible teaches. Where, as concerning my opinion, one shouldn't be praying to the dead, period.
 
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