Annihilationism

Geralt · Jun 29, 2016

ewq1938 said:
No, it's in line with scripture.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your view is not scriptural.

Eternal torture is your view not mine. Your view is wrong.

You continue to not understand what punishment is eternal. I told you want it was but you ignored it.

it says both destroy soul and body and you think it relates to 'eternal punishment' when the context of that verse says NOTHING AT ALL about eternity or punishment. ah now i know your level of interpreting scripture, forcing one text from another to justify your view, much like the cults does it.

"Your view is not scriptural" , what view ? all i did was state the text from the lips of christ himself. and you cannot simply accept what it says because it challenges your idea. well you challenge christ not anyone, you might as well invent your own convenient gospel.

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

StanJ said:
John of Patmos wrote the Book of Revelation and yes he said that the Lake of Fire is the second death. Not hard to figure out seeing as though the second Resurrection had just taken place earlier in the chapter for the judgment and all those whose names were not found written in the Book of Life we're condemned to the Lake of Fire. That's where their bodies died a second time, but their souls continue on as do all the spirits that were thrown in there as previously shown in v10.

Despite your condescending reply, you have to actually have eyes to see and ears to hear, to be able to understand what Revelation is telling you.

Yes, I do. I have eyes to see that the lake of fire is the second death. Do you? Since it is death, it is not eternal life on fire.
Do you have eyes to see what Romans 6:23 says is the wages of sin? Death. Funny how Revelation agrees with Romans when you have eyes to see.
Do you have eyes to see this passage? Can you understand what it is saying?
The stupid man cannot know;
the fool cannot understand this:
that though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever
Psalm 92:6-7

Do you agree that evil doers are doomed to destruction forever?
The Psalm says that some people cannot know this. Are you one of them?
Some people cannot understand that the wicked are destroyed. Are you one of them?

Since the wicked have just been resurrected, they are now going to their second death because the wages of sin is death. The lake of fire is the second death. They will die a second time, and there is no resurrection from the second death. It is not hard to figure out that John is not talking about eternal torture.

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

StanJ said:
There's a pretty strong biblical refutation, 'BALONEY'!
My first suggestion is to stop using the KJV as obviously it's confusing you. Secondly when you make an assertion tried backing It Up by biblical support/corroboration.

I can readily see that you're proficient at opining, but what I'd like to see is your proficiency at actually exegeting the word of God."

"Baloney" is not the word I had in mind because it isn't strong enough, but I wanted my post to be G rated.
Do you agree or disagree with this statement:
"Evildoers are doomed to destruction forever."

It is not "opining" to agree with what the Bible specifically states. I don't know why you are arguing against it.

I also don't know why you are "accusing" me of only using the KJV. First of all, I use many translations and I only rarely use the KJV. Usually when someone will only accept the KJV. I prefer the ESV, but I don't want to get into an argument about it. Secondly, I am not confused by the language of the KJV. Thirdly, your accusation that I am confused by it makes no sense, since I agree with what the Bible says and you do not. Evildoers will be destroyed. Do you agree or disagree?

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Jan001 said:
We are not like God in every way.
I did not say that we were like Him in every way.

Then your proof that all people are immortal because God is immortal fails.

The Bible says that evildoers are doomed to destruction. Obviously they are not immortal.
Though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever;
Psalm 92:7 ESV

Do you agree or disagree that evildoers will be destroyed?

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Der Alter said:
In further response to this out-of-context proof text. Does this prove that souls do not live forever?

In Genesis 12:5, Genesis 46:15, Genesis 46:18, Genesis 46:22, Genesis 46:25, Genesis 46:25-27 the descendants of Jacob are referred to as a certain number of souls. And in Joshua 10:28, Joshua 10:30, Joshua 10:32, Joshua 10:35, Joshua 10:37, Joshua 10:39, Joshua 11:11, Joshua is told to "destroy" or he did "destroy" all the "souls" in certain cities. Joshua did not have the power to literally destroy souls but he could kill people. Therefore in all these verses "souls" refers to individual persons.

God says that the wicked will be destroyed. This does not mean that they will remain undestroyed forever.
The verse that says "the soul who sins shall die" absolutely does not prove that souls will live forever. You seem to have that backwards. No, Joshua could not destroy souls but Jesus said we should fear the one who CAN destroy souls. Haven't you read Matthew 10:28?

Before you jump to the standard argument that apollumi doesn't mean "utterly destroy", remember that Shamad does. (Also apollumi actually does mean "destroy, utterly destroy", but I know that you don't accept that.)

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Der Alter said:
If, the Greek word translated "destroyed" can only mean 'destroyed" and nothing else. But it does not.
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28 ; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26, 3 ( cf. Sir 20:22 ).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.

BAG Greek Lexicon online

Nice try, but apollumi actually does mean "destroy"

Work your way out of this one:
"that though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever"
Psalm 92:7

Psalm 92:7 agrees with the NT passages that state that the wicked will be destroyed, but since it is in Hebrew it doesn't use the Greek work Apollumi. Nobody has yet thought to confuse the meaning of shamad the way you have for apollumi.

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Der Alter said:
See my post #170 above for the complete definition of apollumi.

Is scripture clear? Or is this just another out-of-context proof text?

Psalm 37:1-2
(1) A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
(2) For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
This Psalm is not about man's eternal fate but what happens to Israel's enemies in this life. They will be cut down like grass and wither like green plants. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Evildoers cut off like flowers and green plants, vs. 2. Israel cannot see into eternity but they can see their enemies are no longer around to attack them. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The wicked attack Israel with the sword and bow but their sword will pierce their own heart and their bow broken that is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
The arms of the wicked are broken. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
The wicked will consume away into smoke, in this world.

Psalm 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
Those who are cursed by God will be cut off like flowers, wither like green plants, in this world., vs. 2. That is not annihilation.

Psalm 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Psalm 37:34 Wait on the LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
The wicked will be cut off like flowers, wither like green plants, vs. 2. Israel cannot see into eternity but they can see what happens to their enemies in this world. That is not annihilation.

Yes, Scripture is clear. The wicked will be cut off (like flowers). That is not eternal conscious torment. Nobody tortures their flowers. Flowers die when they are cut. Grass withers because it dies. Scripture is clear that the wicked will perish, this does not mean that the wicked will not perish but will be tormented or tortured or set on fire and not allowed to ever die in hell. Scripture is clear, and it is clear that some people will not accept what Scripture says because of the popular tradition of eternal conscious torment in hell. When you read the statement "the wicked shall be cut off" does that say to you "the wicked will be tormented forever"? Would it say that to you if you had never been told about the tradition of eternal torment? Obviously not. You are reading your doctrine INTO scripture and you are old enough to know that you shouldn't be doing that.

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Geralt said:
you must have been inventing your own bible. 'eternal punishment' is what the text says. if you want to insert 'death' or ideas of 'torture' and make conclusions based on it, then it is convenient for you BUT it is NOT what the text says.

The text does say "eternal punishment". Why is it totally fine for YOU to insert eternal conscious torment into this verse where it doesn't say that, but you think that it is wrong for someone to point out that the punishment of death is also eternal? It's convenient for you to assume that Matthew 25:46 says that the goats will go off to eternal conscious torment, BUT it is NOT what the text says.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
God says that the wicked will be destroyed. This does not mean that they will remain undestroyed forever.
The verse that says "the soul who sins shall die" absolutely does not prove that souls will live forever. You seem to have that backwards. No, Joshua could not destroy souls but Jesus said we should fear the one who CAN destroy souls. Haven't you read Matthew 10:28?
Before you jump to the standard argument that apollumi doesn't mean "utterly destroy", remember that Shamad does. (Also apollumi actually does mean "destroy, utterly destroy", but I know that you don't accept that.)

Have you read Matthew 10:28, and I don't mean "read into?"

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There is no question what God created He can certainly destroy but where is your proof text which says God did or will destroy this/these soul(s) in hell?
.....As for your specious Apollumi argument. I have posted the full definition of Apolummi twice in this thread and nobody, including you, has commented on it. Link to my post #170 this thread. Here again the introductory paragraph. ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Yes, Scripture is clear. The wicked will be cut off (like flowers). That is not eternal conscious torment. Nobody tortures their flowers. Flowers die when they are cut. Grass withers because it dies. Scripture is clear that the wicked will perish, this does not mean that the wicked will not perish but will be tormented or tortured or set on fire and not allowed to ever die in hell. Scripture is clear, and it is clear that some people will not accept what Scripture says because of the popular tradition of eternal conscious torment in hell. When you read the statement "the wicked shall be cut off" does that say to you "the wicked will be tormented forever"? Would it say that to you if you had never been told about the tradition of eternal torment? Obviously not. You are reading your doctrine INTO scripture and you are old enough to know that you shouldn't be doing that.

I am reading nothing into scripture, you are. Much of this is empty argumentation, your out-of-context proof text Psalm 37 is not about man's eternal fate. In this Psalm God is telling Israel what He will do to their enemies which are attacking Israel. Notice how you ignored the verses which contradict your annihilation assumptions/presuppositions.

Psalm 37:14-15
(14) The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
(15) Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
Psalm 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

When Israel's enemies attack "Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken, For the arms of the wicked shall be broken." That is not annihilation. When flowers are cut off and plants wither they do not cease to exist. Maybe you can find a proof text which clearly shows what you want it to. I suggest that you keep personal comments out of this discussion.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Then your proof that all people are immortal because God is immortal fails.
The Bible says that evildoers are doomed to destruction. Obviously they are not immortal.
Though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever;
Psalm 92:7 ESV
Do you agree or disagree that evildoers will be destroyed?

What do you mean by destroyed? Here are several verses which use שָׁמַד/shabad and which do not mean to annihilate, totally cease to exist.

Leviticus 26:30 And I will destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] all their pictures, and destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

Deuteronomy 1:27 And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] us.

Deuteronomy 2:12 The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.

Deuteronomy 2:23 And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Azzah, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them, and dwelt in their stead.)

Deuteronomy 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad]: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] thee.

Deuteronomy 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] them.

Joshua 7:12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] the accursed from among you.

Joshua 9:24 And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.

Joshua 11:14 And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them, neither left they any to breathe.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
. . . Psalm 92:7 agrees with the NT passages that state that the wicked will be destroyed, but since it is in Hebrew it doesn't use the Greek work Apollumi. Nobody has yet thought to confuse the meaning of shamad the way you have for apollumi.

I have confused the meaning of nothing! I quoted the full definition of apollumi from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available today, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker. I added nothing and took away nothing. I merely highlighted the predominant meaning which some folks can't see. Also I did not confuse the meaning of "shamad" I merely quoted verses where it cannot mean annihilate, to cause to cease to exist.

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

deleted essentially duplicate post

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Der Alter said:
Have you read Matthew 10:28, and I don't mean "read into?"

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, I've read it and it says exactly what I believe! PEOPLE can kill the body but can't kill the soul, God can destroy both the BODY and the SOUL in Gehenna. As for proof that God actually WILL destroy the wicked, you only need to read one of the hundreds of Bible passages that say precisely this. Stop being so stubborn.

As for your specious Apollumi argument. I have posted the full definition of Apolummi twice in this thread and nobody, including you, has commented on it.

I've commented on your definition many times and you know that I have. Part of the definition of apollumi is "Utterly Destroy" so it is nonsense for you to make the claim that apollumi CANNOT mean utterly destroy. And you ignored the Hebrew word for destruction entirely which is "shamad". You can't twist that, and I don't buy your baloney that apollumi can't ever mean destruction. For Pete's Sake! It's TRANSLATED THAT WAY IN EVERY TRANSLATION!

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Der Alter said:
What do you mean by destroyed? Here are several verses which use שָׁמַד/shabad and which do not mean to annihilate, totally cease to exist.

Leviticus 26:30 And I will destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

So it is your assertion that after the high alters are destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED?
I know that you tend to look at things backwards, but this is no proof that the high places will not be destroyed. Look at the definition of Shabad, it really does mean destroy.

Numbers 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy [

שָׁמַד/shabad] all their pictures, and destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

So it is your assertion that after their pictures and molten images are destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED?

Deuteronomy 1:27 And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] us.

Are you saying that the Hebrews feared that the Amorites would NOT destroy them?

Deuteronomy 2:12 The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.
So it is your assertion that after Horims are destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED?

Deuteronomy 2:23 And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Azzah, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them, and dwelt in their stead.)
So it is your assertion that after the Avims were destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED? Perhaps they had a picnic with the Israelites!

Deuteronomy 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed [

שָׁמַד/shabad]: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] thee.

How on earth does this verse prove that shamad DOES NOT mean destroyed??? You are very confused.

Deuteronomy 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy [

שָׁמַד/shabad] you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.

THIS is specific proof that Shamad actually DOES mean to destroy and to bring to nothingness! What else could "bring you to nought" mean?

Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy [

שָׁמַד/shabad] them.

Are you just quoting passages that have the word "shamad/destroy" in them? This doesn't prove that shamad does not mean destroy. It is proof that it does mean destroy.

Joshua 7:12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy [

שָׁמַד/shabad] the accursed from among you.

Joshua 9:24 And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy [שָׁמַד/shabad] all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.

Joshua 11:14 And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them, neither left they any to breathe.

What are you trying to pull? In every case, the definition of "destroy" works FAR better in the context than "NOT destroy".

Give it up, there is a reason that the definition of "Shamad" is Destroy.

Timothew · Jun 29, 2016

Der Alter said:
I have confused the meaning of nothing! I quoted the full definition of apollumi from one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available today, Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker. I added nothing and took away nothing. I merely highlighted the predominant meaning which some folks can't see. Also I did not confuse the meaning of "shamad" I merely quoted verses where it cannot mean annihilate, to cause to cease to exist.

I looked at the verses you quoted. None of show that it shamad cannot mean to annihilate or to cause to cease to exist. Kindly see my previous post. You should not try to mislead people into believing that Shamad does not mean to destroy. There are some people who trust what you say as a teacher. It is shameful to mislead them. You know fully well that Shamad actually does mean destroy.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Yes, I've read it many times. Unlike you I do not read INTO it that nobody is able to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

Blatantly false accusation. That is why we can never have a reasonable discussion. Reread my post I clearly said that what God created He can destroy but you have yet to produce a proof text which says God will/did destroy souls in hell.

I accept what Matthew 10:28 says, with no tapdancing required. PEOPLE can kill the body but NOT the Soul. God can destroy BOTH the BODY and the SOUL. It is no coincidence that this is exactly what I have been saying all along. After all, as a Christian, I believe what Jesus Christ said.

No tap dancing.

StanJ · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Yes, I do. I have eyes to see that the lake of fire is the second death. Do you? Since it is death, it is not eternal life on fire.

So how exactly does the Lake of Fire cause our spiritual death but not cause the spiritual death of the devil, the Beast, and the false prophet?
Did God make a built-in sensor for the Lake of Fire that detects human spirits and destroys them?

Timothew said:
Do you have eyes to see what Romans 6:23 says is the wages of sin? Death. Funny how Revelation agrees with Romans when you have eyes to see.

Yes, death of the body, as juxtaposed to eternal life of the body.

Timothew said:
Do you have eyes to see this passage? Can you understand what it is saying?
The stupid man cannot know;
the fool cannot understand this:
that though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever
Psalm 92:6-7

As opposed to being totally destroyed one time? Yes, I SEE and UNDERSTAND.

Timothew said:
Do you agree that evil doers are doomed to destruction forever?

Yes because once an evildoer dies he can no longer do evil. People do evil and their Spirits suffer the repercussions of doing so by being eternally separated from God in torment. Matthew 25:46

Timothew said:
The Psalm says that some people cannot know this. Are you one of them?
Some people cannot understand that the wicked are destroyed. Are you one of them?

I am one of those that the Jesus talks about in John 4:23-24, a true worshipper, not a fake one as shown in v22 like those who believe the spirit dies are.

Timothew said:
Since the wicked have just been resurrected, they are now going to their second death because the wages of sin is death. The lake of fire is the second death. They will die a second time, and there is no resurrection from the second death. It is not hard to figure out that John is not talking about eternal torture.

Apparently it is hard for some who infer torture when it says torment. Let God be true and every man be a liar. That's what Paul says in Romans 3:4.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
So it is your assertion that after the high alters are destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED?I know that you tend to look at things backwards, but this is no proof that the high places will not be destroyed. Look at the definition of Shabad, it really does mean destroy.So it is your assertion that after their pictures and molten images are destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED?Are you saying that the Hebrews feared that the Amorites would NOT destroy them?Deuteronomy 2:12 The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them.So it is your assertion that after Horims are destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED?Deuteronomy 2:23 And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Azzah, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed [שָׁמַד/shabad] them, and dwelt in their stead.)So it is your assertion that after the Avims were destroyed, they will remain UNDESTROYED? Perhaps they had a picnic with the Israelites!How on earth does this verse prove that shamad DOES NOT mean destroyed??? You are very confused.THIS is specific proof that Shamad actually DOES mean to destroy and to bring to nothingness! What else could "bring you to nought" meanAre you just quoting passages that have the word "shamad/destroy" in them? This doesn't prove that shamad does not mean destroy. It is proof that it does mean destroy.
What are you trying to pull? In every case, the definition of "destroy" works FAR better in the context than "NOT destroy".
Give it up, there is a reason that the definition of "Shamad" is Destroy.

Does any person have the power to cause another person to cease to exist in the sense that you argue that God supposedly does to the unrepentant at the final judgement? When Israel שָׁמַד/shabad their enemies did they cease to exist or were their dead bodies still lying around and will they be resurrected to face judgment? When Israel שָׁמַד/shabad the idols and high places did those things cease to exist or were the pieces still lying around? You are conflating merely killing people and tearing up things with the destruction you claim occurs at the final judgment.

StanJ · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
"Baloney" is not the word I had in mind because it isn't strong enough, but I wanted my post to be G rated.
Do you agree or disagree with this statement:
"Evildoers are doomed to destruction forever."

Swearing only shows ones inability to express themselves in proper words.
Yes evildoers are doomed to destruction and their spirits will be in torment forever.

Timothew said:
It is not "opining" to agree with what the Bible specifically states. I don't know why you are arguing against it.

I guess the trick is to learn what it specifically States and then form an opinion, not the other way around.

Timothew said:
I also don't know why you are "accusing" me of only using the KJV. First of all, I use many translations and I only rarely use the KJV. Usually when someone will only accept the KJV. I prefer the ESV, but I don't want to get into an argument about it. Secondly, I am not confused by the language of the KJV. Thirdly, your accusation that I am confused by it makes no sense, since I agree with what the Bible says and you do not. Evildoers will be destroyed. Do you agree or disagree?

I don't know why you can't read plain English, I said stop using the KJV not that it was the only one you used but in this case you used it conveniently because it's the only version that says soul. Evil doers will be destroyed and as the Bible also says their spirits will be tormented forever. You seem to have a problem differentiating between live people and spirits. Spirits don't die, never have never will.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of humans; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

Annihilationism

What is your view of the final state of the unrepentant.

Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Student & Correct Handler of God's Word.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Student & Correct Handler of God's Word.

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