Angry Men

[~Zao~]

(I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make...)
When I was in engineering brainstorm sessions,

• Eng#1 would throw out a good, basic plan.
• Eng#2 would throw out a new paradigm and everybody would applaud (wishing that they thought of it, first).
• Eng#3 would throw out an improvement triggered by #2's paradigm. (The new paradigm gave everyone a new direction to go for ideas and #2 did not/could not envision all of its possibilities, immediately.)
  
• More paradigms and more ideas from within them, etc.

Well-adjusted engineers that I have worked will concur when an idea is more elegant than their own. It translates to higher efficiency [read: less work].

That actually sounds like a great way to spend the workday!

 

[bèlla]

It depends on how one was nurtured, and one's capacity to recognize right from wrong. There is only one truth; people know what is right and wrong. They choose to behave a certain way based on the sum of what they perceive has kept them alive. That may be racism, religion or intellect and everything in between. But, there is only one truth.

Its interesting you mention that. I’ve found myself returning to principles from my childhood quite frequently this year. I saw my mistakes in light of them and started making amendments. The ones I’ve maintained saved me a lot of grief and brought endless blessings.

The only thing that will change the "problem" of masculinity is a(n other) worldwide "consensus" on masculinity. But, that would be one step from the apocalypse like it always was in history.

Without God the options are grave. Otherwise he implodes or explodes. A response will occur no matter what.

Interesting...

I may have to check this person out.

He’s a potty mouth but business wise he knows his stuff and relates well to urban youth.

 

[bèlla]

Anger can come in overt or covert forms, and they are both unsettling.

I don’t know when I became so vehement about anger. But its a quality I do not want in my presence. I suspect its unpredictability is a factor.

However, if you are around someone with covert form of anger frequently and long enough, their "rage" will eventually slip out in the words they use, and sometimes even in the way they drive.

A controlled person could hide it well. But their frustration often reveals itself in their tone. Notice the pauses and watch their body language.

I don't know how to "diffuse" this kind of anger except be as nice as I can in my wording of "No."

A soft word turns away wrath. But there are moments when engagement is necessary. If you establish a pattern of backing down that could encourage more aggression.

You have to make it clear that anger has no place in your discourse.

 

[renniks]

What are the root causes of male disenfranchisement? How do we help them manage their anger in a healthy way? How have you tackled this within yourself or with others?

Please share your thoughts.

What makes you think men are angry as opposed to what? Are there more angry men than women?

 

[bèlla]

I use this video to explain it to those outside of Orthodoxy (and to show my ecumenical spirit).

Thank you for sharing the video.

Probably the best ways of dealing with this is 1) to approach anger in a more measured way before you are tempted to loose your temper.

Silence is usually best. If that means taking a walk, drive, or doing something else that’s better than having a screaming match.

we make the decision to give things up to God etc. and let him manage it. Basically "carry out cross" so to speak.

Prayer is the ideal response. Giving the matter to God and discussing it later when heads have cooled saves a lot of heartache.

 

[ChicanaRose]

If you establish a pattern of backing down that could encourage more aggression.

That's true too...they will think they can get away with it with me.
I learn something new on CF everyday (love it).

 

[bèlla]

What makes you think men are angry as opposed to what? Are there more angry men than women?

A question was posed and many men have replied. I made no comparison between the sexes.

 

[renniks]

A question was posed and many men have replied. I made no comparison between the sexes.

Just trying to understand your motivation.
Anger in men, IMO, is usually frustration coming out sideways. We want to be able to fix everything in life and we of course, are not capable of doing that. I sometimes wonder if we carry Adam's regret at his inaction to save the world from Satan's invasion, in some way. I don't know how else to explain how frustrated I get when I am helpless to fix a situation. Of course, like all sin, it's really rooted in pride.
I also think the modern male bashing isn't helping at all. The whole "toxic Masculinity" bit is really a joke.
What we need is a return to true morals, and that doesn't equal less masculinity. It requires more, IMO.

 

[bèlla]

Maybe on the surface, we should attack conformity first - recognize that being an individual and different is actually productive.

My parents spoke pointedly against following others. I think it stuck. I’m not a conformist by any stripe. My unwillingness to bow to pressure has helped me immensely in my walk with God, work, and personal relationships. Basing my identity in Him has made the greatest difference. I ignore a lot.

However, that would demand an entire and fundamental change of our political, economic, and social systems. So, unless you are strong enough to literally be an island, one may find it better to conform in some sort of way - even if it is because of survival reasons.

I bend on minor issues. Compromise has its place.

Both men and women handicap themselves with logic and reason - as "crazy" as that sounds.

Most are prone to overthinking and churning things in their heads that I never would. The mind is a tool and we are its master. That’s why I value wisdom. She cuts to the chase in simple language and leaves complexity lagging behind. ;-)

 

[Sabertooth]

I don’t know when I became so vehement about anger. But its a quality I do not want in my presence. I suspect its unpredictability is a factor.

Under ideal situations, I have learned to express an [ambivalent?] anger.

One of my sons brought home some prescription drugs from a suspected drug dealer friend. I took magnified pictures to identify them. Their name was clearly printed on them.

I brought my son and the pills to our police station, so he could face the consequences and we could make it clear that we weren't supporting that behavior.

Our police chief

• Took the pills,
• Pretended that he couldn't identify them,
• Refused my photos, and
  
• Gave my son a write-up with no real consequences.

He even had a local pharmacist come in to "consult" who couldn't identify them, either.

I got the sense that he was attempting to cover this up, and yes, it made me angry. I wrote an email of my concerns to his superiors. I told them,

"I know that you can't discuss police business with me, but you really need to look into this incident." I figured that if he had a bona fide reason to act like he did --I could think of one or two-- nothing would become of it. If there was something dirty going on, he'd have to answer to them. As anger, it was passive-aggression. My anger would fall harmless if he was innocent.

A week or two later, he announced his retirement. And the pharmacist left the area, too. On two separate occasions before he quit, he warned me that I should be careful of "very dangerous people" in our town. It felt like a warning more than a threat.

 

[bèlla]

The actual extremists who actually apply and/or incite violence? On either side? (or perhaps any side, since I think there are several axes that people fall onto) I think there's a certain level of individual who stops having rational goals in mind. They just rage for the sake of raging.

I haven’t touched on them but you are welcome to do so. Its on topic and a consequence of anger we can’t ignore.

I agree with your assessment of rage. I’ve run across people like that on the Internet and I’m always glad there’s a screen between us. They aren’t venting. Its far deeper and more malevolent.

The so-called alt-Right?

I don’t think their message is presented that way by the media. Opening up a dialogue on issues of personal and national interest shouldn’t be a problem.

What the real ones want is exactly what they say: Complete and total social equality of every single human being.

I think its possible but I don’t believe it will ever be allowed.

They're just deluded into thinking that robbing from the rich to give to the poor will accomplish it rather than just irritating the wounds further.

More classism and us versus them ideology. There’s enough of that already.

The ones who just buy into this stuff because they see personal advantage in it? They aren't self-aware enough to know what they want. They're rank opportunists who won't even admit they're opportunists. (I love me some opportunism, so long as you're up front about what both parties get from the deal, but so many SJW types aren't.) They are slaves to their passions.

It reminds me of Gordon Gecko’s famous line. He knew who he was. I’ve encountered some cutthroat advocates who’d steamroll you en route to their goal. In their minds the means justify their behavior. But if another did the same they’d denounce it.

 

[bèlla]

Anger in men, IMO, is usually frustration coming out sideways. We want to be able to fix everything in life and we of course, are not capable of doing that.

I think that’s true in some cases. And its equally correct that its display may be the result of wanting ones way and failing to have it.

I sometimes wonder if we carry Adam's regret at his inaction to save the world from Satan's invasion, in some way. I don't know how else to explain how frustrated I get when I am helpless to fix a situation. Of course, like all sin, it's really rooted in pride.

You can argue many perspectives. A noble desire, pride, and control. The challenge with fixing is making sure the other parties want your solution. And being certain you’re the right person for the job. God may have another person in mind. Prayer must be the first step before action is taken.

I also think the modern male bashing isn't helping at all. The whole "toxic Masculinity" bit is really a joke.
What we need is a return to true morals, and that doesn't equal less masculinity. It requires more, IMO.

There’s too much unkindness in the world. Bashing doesn’t inspire anyone to betterment. Its demeaning and emasculating.

I think “true” begins with God’s principles and we move outward from there. Taking the aspects of masculinity and femininity that resonate and displaying them with a godly odor.

 

[bèlla]

I brought my son and the pills to our police station, so he could face the consequences and we could make it clear that we weren't supporting that behavior.

You did the right thing. Hopefully, he’s learned his lesson.

A week or two later, he announced his retirement. And the pharmacist left the area, too. On two separate occasions before he quit, he warned me that I should be careful of "very dangerous people" in our town. It felt like a warning more than a threat.

That was the Lord’s doing. He unveils the hidden things. I’m glad you followed your hunch.

 

[durangodawood]

You did the right thing. Hopefully, he’s learned his lesson.

That was the Lord’s doing. He unveils the hidden things. I’m glad you followed your hunch.

Wow. I'm impressed with the way you "manage" the thread you started. Here and there a subtle re-direction away from polemics for the sake of polemics, and toward thoughtfulness.

 

[bèlla]

Wow. I'm impressed with the way you "manage" the thread you started. Here and there a subtle re-direction away from polemics for the sake of polemics, and toward thoughtfulness.

This isn’t an attack on men or an opportunity to share ones gripes on their shortcomings.

What I hope to achieve is valuable feedback and greater awareness for all involved. It takes a man to understand a man and God to shape him.

 

[Halbhh]

What are the root causes of male disenfranchisement? How do we help them manage their anger in a healthy way? How have you tackled this within yourself or with others?

Please share your thoughts.

While I've met very few angry men, the only one I can think of just seemed to need some time. On a related question: holding on to anger is a serious sin. If we meet someone holding on to anger (regardless of gender) what you are seeing if you see that somewhere is someone in real need for divine intervention. Best to pray for them.

 

[creslaw]

The happiest marriages I have seen are where the wife and husband can both express their anger towards each other ... and then forgive each other.

 

[Paidiske]

Most of the men I've seen this in have been older and struggling to deal with a world that has changed profoundly since they were young. Perhaps there is something about the need to foster resilience and openness to change, in all sorts of ways.

there are a lot of women who aren't Ellen Ripley but seem to think they should get Ellen Ripley's perks just because they are female and belong to a generation of humans that has bucked thousands of years of evolutionary conditioning and decided, against all evidence to the contrary, that male bodies and female bodies are just arbitrary vessels for completely sexless Platonic souls that are essentially identical. Well, we're not sexless souls, and Ellen Ripley had to earn the respect we have for her character through her intelligent and ethically conscious decision-making. She didn't selectively play the "ah, I'm a defenseless damsel" card to cost men their jobs with frivolous sexual harassment claims and then turn around act all tough once she was at the top of the heap. She just acted tough the whole way through. And that's why she lived in the escape pod whereas Dallas died in the vents. That's why we cheer for her. If you're not willing to act tough the whole way through, don't expect people to cheer.

There's a lot tied up in all of this, but it comes across as deeply problematic; as suggesting that there is only one valid or appropriate way to excel, and that most women don't reach it. "Acting tough" is not necessarily the measure of a person's character.

If people are out to be treated as heroes while doing nothing extraordinary, they're out of touch with reality. If they expect to be treated as having a valuable contribution to make, despite diversity of gifts, strengths, and personalities in the room, then that's a healthy approach. Devaluing people who aren't Ellen Ripley but have other things to bring to the table is really, in the end, pretty degrading of your fellow human beings.

(As an aside, I don't believe in "sexless souls" because I don't believe in a soul that's separate from a body, but I also don't believe there's any profound ontological difference between men and women. We have different physiology, but for most situations in life that's pretty meaningless).

The fact that men play the dumb villain in society, from the #metoo movement to the dumb father on sit-coms, men are under consistent attack.

Men as the "dumb villain" is not a direct product of feminism, though.

And they want to be able to talk about the uncomfortable facts about human evolution and not be punished for it (one sentiment I do share), such as the fact that women are, on average, more likely to prioritize the wealth of a suitor as a factor in sexual attraction, or the fact that men, on average the world 'round, tend to select for an hourglass figure.

Is women prioritising men's wealth due to evolution or due to socialisation? I'd argue the latter, given that women know very well that our society too often pushes us into economic dependence; if you know you're going to have to rely on someone else for economic security, then of course economic means are going to factor into your choice of that someone.

 

[bèlla]

While I've met very few angry men, the only one I can think of just seemed to need some time. On a related question: holding on to anger is a serious sin. If we meet someone holding on to anger (regardless of gender) what you are seeing if you see that somewhere is someone in real need for divine intervention. Best to pray for them.

Needed time for what?

I agree. I don’t think anger is healthy for the individual or the people they engage with. Peace is always best.

 

[bèlla]

The happiest marriages I have seen are where the wife and husband can both express their anger towards each other ... and then forgive each other.

I think the best marriages are those where both choose to step away from their anger before it spills out. Most people can feel the change within themselves when they’re getting angry.