Anglo-Catholic = Western Orthodox?

[Gnarwhal]

About six months ago I attended a Continuing Anglican parish briefly before I stopped going to church altogether. It's a member of the Anglican Province of Christ the King so it's one of the most Catholic of the Continuing Anglican churches (at least, that's what I heard), it was definitely more Catholic than the Episcopal parish in my town that I visited.

Anyway, that's neither hear nor there. What I'm curious about is I was recalling something the rector said during a conversation way back. I was telling him about how I checked out the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church and I mentioned Western-Rite Orthodoxy, to which he replied "Yes, we're Western Orthodox".

Now, I understand that in the truest form, that's not accurate because they're not in communion with the Orthodox Church (the last I heard the Antiochian Church is the only one with a Western Rite anymore). With that being said though, aside from the use of the 1928 BCP, is Anglo-Catholicism markedly similar to Western-Rite Orthodoxy? I've heard Western-Rite liturgy described as essentially the same as a Tridentine Mass. Some of the videos and pictures I've seen of Western-Rite Orthodoxy, which by the way seems to only have a presence on the East Coast, seem extremely similar to the Mass I went to at the Anglican church.

The reason I'm curious is I'm just wondering how easy it would be for a church like that to come into communion with Antioch, if they wanted to be genuinely Western Orthodox. Not that I've ever heard anyone say anything about doing that, but it was just one of those "what if" scenarios that play through my mind.

The reason I didn't want to bring this up in either of the congregational forums is because I assume the answers would be biased one way or another.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I suspect one of our Antiochian Orthodox brothers will wander through here soon and give a more definitive answer. But, I'll take a shot...Antiochian Orthodox are Eastern Orthodox. I doubt they are coming in communion with an Anglican group just because they proclaim themselves "Western Orthodox." I suspect the group you visited is orthodox in the little "o" sense of the word.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I suspect one of our Antiochian Orthodox brothers will wander through here soon and give a more definitive answer. But, I'll take a shot...Antiochian Orthodox are Eastern Orthodox. I doubt they are coming in communion with an Anglican group just because they proclaim themselves "Western Orthodox." I suspect the group you visited is orthodox in the little "o" sense of the word.

Oh, I know that the Antiochian church is part of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but they also have a Western Rite (you can view it on their website) that is remarkably similar to what I witnessed at the Continuing Anglican parish. What I meant as far as being in communion had more to do with if the Anglican parishes practices were already pretty close to what the Western Rite Orthodox do, and if they wanted to leave the APCK and join the Antiochian Western-Rite, would that be a relatively easy transition?

Sorry if that was a muddy explanation...

 

[Albion]

About six months ago I attended a Continuing Anglican parish briefly before I stopped going to church altogether. It's a member of the Anglican Province of Christ the King so it's one of the most Catholic of the Continuing Anglican churches (at least, that's what I heard), it was definitely more Catholic than the Episcopal parish in my town that I visited.

Anyway, that's neither hear nor there. What I'm curious about is I was recalling something the rector said during a conversation way back. I was telling him about how I checked out the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church and I mentioned Western-Rite Orthodoxy, to which he replied "Yes, we're Western Orthodox".

Now, I understand that in the truest form, that's not accurate because they're not in communion with the Orthodox Church

I have the hunch that he intended his remark only as a generalization and didn't realize that you are more informed about the meaning of Western Orthodoxy than the average churchgoer.

With that being said though, aside from the use of the 1928 BCP, is Anglo-Catholicism markedly similar to Western-Rite Orthodoxy?

I wouldn't say so. Today's Anglo-Catholicism is imitative of Roman Catholicism whereas Western Orthodoxy is treated by the Orthodox who run those parishes as only a temporary thing to get the people there weaned off from their old ways and ready to become Eastern Orthodox in both doctrine and practice. If you are inclined towards the Greek or Russian or Antiochian Orthodox churches, I'd recommend going straight there.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I have the hunch that he intended his remark only as a generalization and didn't realize that you are more informed about the meaning of Western Orthodoxy than the average churchgoer.


I wouldn't say so. Today's Anglo-Catholicism is imitative of Roman Catholicism whereas Western Orthodoxy is treated by the Orthodox who run those parishes as only a temporary thing to get the people there weaned off from their old ways and ready to become Eastern Orthodox in both doctrine and practice. If you are inclined towards the Greek or Russian or Antiochian Orthodox churches, I'd recommend going straight there.

Yeah, perhaps you're right.

 

[luckyfredsdad]

I have the hunch that he intended his remark only as a generalization and didn't realize that you are more informed about the meaning of Western Orthodoxy than the average churchgoer.


I wouldn't say so. Today's Anglo-Catholicism is imitative of Roman Catholicism whereas Western Orthodoxy is treated by the Orthodox who run those parishes as only a temporary thing to get the people there weaned off from their old ways and ready to become Eastern Orthodox in both doctrine and practice. If you are inclined towards the Greek or Russian or Antiochian Orthodox churches, I'd recommend going straight there.

If the poster desires to be Eastern Orthodox, he might as well go ,'Antiochian,'.
How-and ever, to be a Catholic one has to be Baptised, by water and by word, in other words to follow the Revelation of Christ, this to be recorded in scripture and to be interpreted , explained and completed by the Fathers of the Seven Councils. If he intends to be be a Catholic, and endevours to follow the teachings of the undivided Church and to do as the Church does if he joins the three or four Anglican Catholic Communions that still follow the original tenets of the S.Louis Declaration life might be lonely, but he won't go wrong.
It is belief that matters , Apostolic teaching on both Orders and Faith.As far as I can see he won't find historic thought in Canterbury Communion or the multitudinous Anglican sects.

 

[Albion]

If the poster desires to be Eastern Orthodox, he might as well go ,'Antiochian,'.

Yes, but he's conflicted. To a lot of people who are used to Western worship the pros and cons of Orthodoxy are hard to balance.

It is belief that matters

Well, I appreciate that we often talk that way, but if we put ourselves in the shoes of someone--anyone--who's looking to find an actual parish to join, it's a bit more complicated, especially if there are several competing churches to choose between, doctrine-wise. You understand this, I can tell.

Apostolic teaching on both Orders and Faith.As far as I can see he won't find historic thought in Canterbury Communion or the multitudinous Anglican sects.

You just recommended several Continuing Anglican jurisdictions ("if he joins the three or four Anglican Catholic Communions that still follow the original tenets of the S.Louis Declaration life might be lonely, but he won't go wrong"), so I don't quite follow this negative turn.

 

[Cappadocious]

Western Orthodoxy is treated by the Orthodox who run those parishes as only a temporary thing to get the people there weaned off from their old ways and ready to become Eastern Orthodox in both doctrine and practice.

No.

 

[Albion]

No.

It's difficult to reply to a single word, but if you are suggesting that Western Orthodox parishes are not treated as religious halfway houses, you are wrong. At least, you are wrong according to the Western Christians who have reported joining them in the belief that they could be Orthodox in belief but retain--with the full support of their patriarchates--most of the Western Catholic or Anglican worship style that is implied by the term "Western Orthodoxy."

Within a little time, they found that they were being told, in various ways, that it's been awhile now, so it's time for you to start using Eastern terminology, Eastern practices, Eastern hymns, and so on.

Is there some jurisdiction somewhere, that is unlike this? Perhaps. But this is the reality of at least some converts to Western Orthodoxy, so if we are discussing the wisdom of anyone else making that move, it deserves to be considered carefully.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Western Orthodoxy is based largely off of Anglican praxis, yes.

No, the majority of people I have met with who are Western Orthodox do not see themselves as any sort of halfway house. Yes some have seen them that way. Judging by the way younger Orthodox feel about the Western Rite, it is the halfway-housers who are in for a rude awakening. WRO isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

I have met some Westerners who were sad to discover that WRO is, in fact, Orthodoxy, and that they weren't allowed to continue with this or that Western devotion, and left after deciding they could not submit to The Church on this issue (though there are also some of the type that Albion describes who were, and are, wrongly told such things). Often you find them online, describing in great, long tracts why such and such devotion is, in fact, perfectly Orthodox, and totally Western, and then blaming Eastern bias for not being allowed to continue to practice whatever.

It is fairly common for an Anglo-Catholic parish to convert en mass to Orthodoxy. My wife's old WR parish was started that way. All they would have to do is agree to Orthodox doctrine and contact the Antiochian bishop of their diocese.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Western Orthodoxy is based largely off of Anglican praxis, yes.

No, the majority of people I have met with who are Western Orthodox do not see themselves as any sort of halfway house. Yes some have seen them that way. Judging by the way younger Orthodox feel about the Western Rite, it is the halfway-housers who are in for a rude awakening. WRO isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future.

I have met some Westerners who were sad to discover that WRO is, in fact, Orthodoxy, and that they weren't allowed to continue with this or that Western devotion, and left after deciding they could not submit to The Church on this issue (though there are also some of the type that Albion describes who were, and are, wrongly told such things). Often you find them online, describing in great, long tracts why such and such devotion is, in fact, perfectly Orthodox, and totally Western, and then blaming Eastern bias for not being allowed to continue to practice whatever.

Interesting, I've heard that ROCOR recently decided to close down it's Western Right, and that parishioners were going to be expected to either switch to the Byzantine Rite or find an Antiochian Western Rite parish. Is this still the case or did they back pedal? Or am I perhaps misinformed?

It is fairly common for an Anglo-Catholic parish to convert en mass to Orthodoxy. My wife's old WR parish was started that way. All they would have to do is agree to Orthodox doctrine and contact the Antiochian bishop of their diocese.

That's kind of what I was thinking. The Anglican parish I'm speaking of is part of the Anglican Province of Christ the King, so they're very Catholic in their praxis, but the parish membership is very small - I'm not even sure how the place sustains itself and I can't imagine the APCK providing much financial backing. So the wheels started turning in my head and I wondered if perhaps there would be more stability for them under the umbrella of, say, the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

I'm quite fond of that little parish, although technically I haven't gone to church for over six months until last Sunday when I joined my parents at their Presbyterian Church. I'm not sure if I'll return to the Anglican parish but it still holds a special place in my heart nonetheless.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

From what I understand the ROCOR WR is still going on. They've had some re-structuring, and many thought that they may be abolishing the rite, but from what I've read (an old post on the Chrisminster Monastery website, as well as the 'letter' put out by Fr. Anthony of the Occidentalist blog, who is a member of the committee investigating the ROCOR WR, I believe) the rite is just being brought more into line with canons which might've been previously disregarded in the WR. No WR parish has closed down as a result of the Synod, as far as I've heard.

 

[Gnarwhal]

From what I understand the ROCOR WR is still going on. They've had some re-structuring, and many thought that they may be abolishing the rite, but from what I've read (an old post on the Chrisminster Monastery website, as well as the 'letter' put out by Fr. Anthony of the Occidentalist blog, who is a member of the committee investigating the ROCOR WR, I believe) the rite is just being brought more into line with canons which might've been previously disregarded in the WR. No WR parish has closed down as a result of the Synod, as far as I've heard.

Oh well that's wonderful news! Forgive my ignorance but what does it necessarily mean to be "brought more into line with canons"? That doesn't impact the liturgy that the WR practices, does it?

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Depends. The 'straw that broke the camel's back' was something like ordaining more than one man at a Liturgy. Apparently there are canons which forbid that, but it used to be a practice in the West so someone thought it would be ok, but it wasn't, so the ROCOR vicariate bishop was retired, etc. etc. Church politics. I don't pay attention to them.

As far as I know it's not much to do with the Western liturgy and more to do with just that - politics. And, of course, all of this is just in ROCOR, not the Antiochian WR.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Depends. The 'straw that broke the camel's back' was something like ordaining more than one man at a Liturgy. Apparently there are canons which forbid that, but it used to be a practice in the West so someone thought it would be ok, but it wasn't, so the ROCOR vicariate bishop was retired, etc. etc. Church politics. I don't pay attention to them.

As far as I know it's not much to do with the Western liturgy and more to do with just that - politics. And, of course, all of this is just in ROCOR, not the Antiochian WR.

Interesting, thanks for the information!

 

[luckyfredsdad]

Now, I understand that in the truest form, that's not accurate because they're not in communion with the Orthodox Church (the last I heard the Antiochian Church is the only one with a Western Rite anymore). With that being said though, aside from the use of the 1928 BCP, is Anglo-Catholicism markedly similar to Western-Rite Orthodoxy? I've heard Western-Rite liturgy described as essentially the same as a Tridentine Mass. Some of the videos and pictures I've seen of Western-Rite Orthodoxy, which by the way seems to only have a presence on the East Coast, seem extremely similar to the Mass I went to at the Anglican church.

As a Continuing Anglican, I have to say that to be a Catholic one has to be Baptised by Water and by Word, as well as to be subject to Apostolic Succession in both Doctrine and Orders. That is by Christ's Revelation, recorded within scripture and explained, interpreted and completed by
the Seven Ecumenical Council. Even by Orthodox standards (see their catechism, regarding doing what the Church believes and does,) the main three Continuers stand clear of the morass that is present day Neo Anglicanism.
By tradition, if you don't believe in Christ ,Scripture & Revelation you are in a sect. The attitude of much of the, Western Orthodox especially , is wanting in Charity, that however is their business and they will be judged on it! We as Traditional Anglicans must follow the teachings of the Holy Ghost and have confidence in our faith & Church we follow Holy Tradition. Ask your Western Orthodox Friends, just where Anglicans fail the Doctrinal test? When in Palestine a few years ago , after presenting our documents as it were and under going some examination we were offered the use at an Orthodox altar in Jerusalem, much I might say to the chagrin of the Canter bury Communion who,d been refused.