• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wicked Willow

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
2,715
312
✟4,434.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Back in the days when I was still a Christian, I always wondered what purpose angels could possibly have, given that an omnipotent god is hardly in need of messengers and/or intermediaries. Still, they are a fascinating phenomenon, especially given that they exist in all the Abrahamaic religions, but play slightly different roles in each of those.

So, how are angels described by your particular religion, what part do they play, and what do you make of them? Are they emanations of the One? A celestial bureaucracy? Exceptionally pious souls? Fiery snakes with wings? Creatures with free will or without?
 

Penumbra

Traveler
Dec 3, 2008
2,658
135
United States
✟26,036.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
I'll subscribe to this thread, because I'm interested in the responses.

I agree with your question about what purpose angels could possibly serve. I think it has to do with older conceptions of god which were less powerful and omnipresent. In that regard, god uses angels as his medium of action. Conceptions of god as an all-powerful, all-knowing being would put angels out of a job I'd suspect.

I used to believe in them when I was little, though. I was taught I had a guardian angel, and all that...

-Lyn
 
Upvote 0

Mahammad

Kafir
May 30, 2009
1,664
41
Canada
✟24,589.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
In Islam Allah(swt) created Angels before human and there are many we don't know how many angels and they have names but we only know the names of 8 angels I'll start with there duties:

Among the angels is one whose task it was to convey the revelation from Allah to His Messengers; this is al-Rooh al-Ameen, Jibril, upon whom be peace. Allah says:

"Say: whoever is an enemy to Jibreel - for he brings down the (revelation) to your heart by Allah’s will. . . " [al-Baqarah 2:97]

"Which the trustworthy spirit has brought down,
Upon your heart, that you may be (one) of the warners."
[al-Shu‘araa’ 26:193-194]

Another is responsible for rain, directing it wherever Allah wishes. This is Mikaa’eel, upon whom be peace. He has helpers, who do what he tells them, by the command of his Lord; they direct the winds and clouds, as Allah wills.

Another is responsible for blowing the Trumpet, which will be blown by Israafeel at the onset of the Hour (the Day of Judgement).

Others are responsible for taking people’s souls: these are the Angel of Death and his helpers. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "Say: ‘the Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls, then shall you be brought back to your Lord.’" [al-Sajdah 32:11] There is no proof in any saheeh hadeeth that his name is ‘Azraa’eel.

Others are responsible for protecting the slave throughout his life, when he stays home and when he travels, when he is asleep and when he is awake. These are the "angels in succession" concerning whom Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"It is the same (to Him) whether any of you conceal his speech or declare it openly, whether he be hid by night or go forth freely by day.
For each (person), there are angels in succession, before and behind him. They guard him by the Command of Allaah. Verily! Allaah will not change the good condition of a people so long as they do not change their state of goodness themselves (by committing sin and by being ungrateful and disobedient to Allaah). But when Allaah wills a people’s punishment, there can be no turning back of it, and they will find besides Him no protector."
[al-Ra‘d 13:10-11]

Others are responsible for recording the deeds of man, good and bad. These are the "honourable scribes" (kiraaman kaatibeen) and are referred to in the aayaat (interpretation of the meanings):
". . . and He sends guardians (angels guarding and writing all of one’s good and bad deeds) over you . . ." [al-An‘aam 6:61]

"Or do they think that We hear not their secrets and their private counsel? (Yes We do) and Our Messengers (appointed angels in charge of mankind) are by them, to record."
[al-Zukhruf 43:80]

"(Remember!) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being after he or she has attained the age of puberty), one sitting on the right and one on the left (to note his or her actions).
Not a word does he (or she) utter, but there is a watcher by him ready (to record it)."
[Qaaf 50:17-18]

"But verily, over you (are appointed angels in charge of mankind) to watch you,
Kiraaman (honourable) kaatibeen - writing down (your deeds)."
[al-Infitaar 82:10-11]

Others are responsible for testing people in the grave. These are Munkar and Nakeer. From Abu Hurayrah who said: "The Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: ‘When the deceased is buried (or he said: when one of you is buried), there come to him two blue-black angels, one of whom is called Munkar and the other Nakeer. They ask him, ‘What did you used to say about this man?’ . . ." [The hadeeth is quoted in full above]

Some of them are the keepers of Paradise. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"And those who kept their duty to their Lord will be led to Paradise in groups, till, when they reach it, its gates will be opened and its keepers will say: Salaamun ‘alaikum (peace be upon you!). You have done well, so enter here, to abide therein."
[al-Zumar 39:73]

Some of them are the keepers of Hell, the "guards of Hell", whose number is nineteen and whose leader is Malik, upon whom be peace. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

"And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups, till, when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened. And its keepers will say, ‘Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, - reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?’ They will say: ‘Yes, but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!’" [al-Zumar 39:71]

"Then. let him call upon his council (of helpers),
We will call the guards of Hell (to deal with him)!" [al-‘Alaq 97:17-18]

"And what will make you know exactly what Hell-fire is?
It spares not (any sinner), nor does it leave (anything unburnt)!
Burning the skins!
Over it are nineteen (angels as guardians and keepers of Hell).
And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire, and We have fixed their number only as a trial for the disbelievers - in order that the People of the Scripture may arrive at a certainty and the believers may increase in Faith . . ." [al-Muddaththir 74:27-31]

"And they will cry: ‘O Malik (Keeper of Hell)! Let your Lord make an end of us.’ He will say: ‘Verily you shall abide forever.’" [al-Zukhruf 43:77]
One of the angels is responsible for the sperm in the womb, as is mentioned in the hadeeth of Ibn Mas‘ood (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: "The Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him), whose truthfulness is confirmed, said: ‘The way that each of you is created is that he is gathered in his mother’s womb for forty days as a sperm drop, and then for a similar length of time as a blood-clot, and then for a similar length of time as a lump of flesh. Then an angel is sent and he breathes the spirit into (the foetus), and is charged with four commands: to write down his provision, his life-span, his actions, and whether he will be wretched or happy. By the One besides Whom there is no other god, one of you may do the deeds of the people of Paradise until he is just a cubit away from entering it, then his fate will overtake him and he will begin to do the deeds of the people of Hell, so he will enter Hell; and one of you may do the deeds of the people of Hell until he is just a cubit away from entering it, then his fate will overtake him and he will begin to do the deeds of the people of Paradise, so he will enter Paradise." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 3208 and by Muslim, no. 2643).

Some angels carry the Throne of Allaah, as He describes in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning):
"Those (angels) who bear the Throne (of Allaah) and those around it glorify the praises of their Lord, and believe in Him, and ask forgiveness for those who believe (in the Oneness of Allaah) (saying): ‘Our Lord! You comprehend all things in mercy and knowledge, so forgive those who repent and follow Your way, and save them from the torment of the blazing Fire!’" [Ghaafir 40:7]

Some of the angels travel throughout the world, seeking out gatherings of dhikr (remembrance of Allaah). Abu Hurayrah said: "The Messenger of Allaah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: ‘Allah, be He be blessed and exalted, has angels who travel the highways seeking out the people of dhikr. When they find people remembering Allah, the Mighty and Majestic, they call out to one another, "Come to what you hunger for!" and they enfold them with their wings, stretching up to the lowest heaven. Their Lord asked then, and He knows better than them, "What are My slaves saying?" They say: "They are glorifying, magnifying, praising and extolling You." He asks, "Have they seen Me?" They say, "No, by Allaah, they have not seen You." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw Me?" They say, "They would be even more fervent and devoted in their praise and worship." He asks, "What are they asking me for?" They say, "They ask You for Paradise." He asks, "And have they seen it?" They say, "No, by Allaah, O Lord, they have not seen it." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw it?" They say: "They would be even more eager for it and they would beseech You even more earnestly." He asks, "And what do they seek My protection from?" They say, "From the Fire of Hell." He asks, "Have they seen it?" They say, "No, by Allaah, they have not seen it." He asks, "And how would it be if they saw it?" They say: "They would be even more afraid and anxious to escape it." Allah says: "You are My witnesses that I have forgiven them." One of the angels says: "So-and-so is not really one of them; he came (to the gathering) for some other reason." Allah says, "They were all in the gathering, and one of them will not be excluded (from forgiveness)."’" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, al-Fath, no. 6408).

Some of them are responsible for the mountains. ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) asked the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him): "Have you ever faced any day more difficult than the day of Uhud?" He said: "I suffered at the hands of your people and the worst that I suffered was what I suffered at their hands on the day of ‘Aqabah. That was when I went to call Ibn ‘Abd Yaalayl ibn ‘Abd al-Kalaal to Islam, and he did not respond. I left, feeling depressed and hardly knowing where I was going. I did not recover until I found myself in Qarn al-Tha‘aalib. I raised my head and saw that I was being shaded by a cloud. I looked, and saw Jibreel in the cloud. He called me and said: ‘Allah has heard what your people said and how they responded to you. He has sent the Angel of the Mountains so that you can tell him to do to them whatever you want.’ The Angel of the Mountains called me and greeted me, then said: ‘O Muhammad, tell me what you want me to do. If you want, I can crush them between two mountains.’" The Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: "All I hope for is that Allah will bring forth from their loins people who will worship Allah alone and not associate any partner with Him." (Reported by al-Buhaari, Fath, no. 3231).

Some of them visit the Much Frequented House (al-bayt al-ma‘moor). In the lengthy hadeeth describing the Israa’ and Mi‘raaj (the Night Journey and the Ascent to Heaven), the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said:
"Then I was taken up to the Much-Frequented House: every day seventy thousand angels visit it and leave, never returning to it again, another [group] coming after them."

There are also angels standing in rows, who never get tired or sit down, and others who bow or prostrate, and never raise their heads, as was reported by Abu Dharr, may Allah be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) said: ‘I see what you do not see and hear what you do not hear. The heaven makes a noise like groaning, and it has the right to (or it is no surprise), for there is no space in it the width of four fingers, but there is an angel there, placing his forehead in sujood (prostration) to Allaah. By Allaah, if you knew what I know, you would laugh little and weep much, you would not enjoy your relationships with women and you would go out in the street praying to Allaah.’" (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, no. 2312)
 
Upvote 0

GuardianShua

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2004
8,666
303
✟10,663.00
Faith
Back in the days when I was still a Christian, I always wondered what purpose angels could possibly have, given that an omnipotent god is hardly in need of messengers and/or intermediaries. Still, they are a fascinating phenomenon, especially given that they exist in all the Abrahamaic religions, but play slightly different roles in each of those.

So, how are angels described by your particular religion, what part do they play, and what do you make of them? Are they emanations of the One? A celestial bureaucracy? Exceptionally pious souls? Fiery snakes with wings? Creatures with free will or without?

If the word "Angel-s" was translated into English, it would read "messenger." Sample: Jude

1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of James, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was nessesary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneeked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.
5. I will remined you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.
7. Just like Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in the same manner, they gave themselves over to fornication, and strange flesh.
8. And they will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, as a set example; As also along with these filthy dreamers who also defile their flesh.
9. They say evil things about dignitaries and despise their dominion, they say evil things about what they know nothing about.
10. But what they do know naturally like brute beasts; In those things they have corrupted themselves.
 
Upvote 0

GuardianShua

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2004
8,666
303
✟10,663.00
Faith
Oh, I am familiar with the etymology. Could you elaborate on the matter, in your own words, preferably?

Angels are a myth, they do not exist. They are part of the Pagan religion, introduced into Judaism and Christianity: And Islam. The "messengers" being spoken of in bible scriptures are either people in heaven, or people on earth. Example: A Seraphim is a person of Judgement: Transliteral > Fiery being. The word Fire is often used parabolically to mean judgement. And also the word Cherubim means: Highest guardian being. Hell and trinitarianism is also part of the Pagan religion introduced into Christianity. The word "beast" in some places of the KJV is also not correctly translated. In some places it should read: Living beings. The reason for these introductions is because the Judaic Christians lost the war to the Catholic. The word Catholic means "Universal." The goddess Cath was the Etruscans sun goddess.
 
Upvote 0

Arthra

Baha'i
Feb 20, 2004
7,060
572
California
Visit site
✟86,812.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
So, how are angels described by your particular religion, what part do they play, and what do you make of them? Are they emanations of the One? A celestial bureaucracy? Exceptionally pious souls? Fiery snakes with wings? Creatures with free will or without?

Baha'is view "Angels" as perfected human beings..

And now, concerning His words: "And He shall send His angels...."

By "angels" is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim.

~~~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 78


Abdu'l-Baha addressed some people

"Ye are the angels!...

"Ye are the angels, if your feet be firm, your spirits rejoiced, your secret thoughts pure, your eyes consoled, your ears opened, your breasts dilated with joy, and your souls gladdened, and if you arise to assist the Covenant, to resist dissension and to be attracted to the Effulgence!"

~~~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 360

Also:

By angels is meant the divine confirmations and heavenly powers. Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom. They are of the kingdom, heavenly; they are of the merciful One, divine. They are the manifestations of the divine grace and the dawns of spiritual bounty.

~~~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 409

There's also a sense where angels are understood as spiritual beings that are part of the Concourse on High.. These spiritual beings could be those humans who have ascended from this world into the spiritual worlds and are having a beneficient influence on this world:

"Send down upon them, O Lord, the concourse of the angels in heaven and earth and all that is between, to aid Thy servants, to succour and strengthen them, to enable them to achieve success, to sustain them, to invest them with glory, to confer upon them honour and exaltation, to enrich them and to make them triumphant with a wondrous triumph."

~~~ Compilations, Fire and Light, p. 18)
 
Upvote 0

Penumbra

Traveler
Dec 3, 2008
2,658
135
United States
✟26,036.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Private
By "angels" is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim.

~~~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 78
Is there any elaboration on which human traits and limitations are consumed, and which exalted attributes they possess?

By angels is meant the divine confirmations and heavenly powers. Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom. They are of the kingdom, heavenly; they are of the merciful One, divine. They are the manifestations of the divine grace and the dawns of spiritual bounty.
~~~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 409
What does it mean for an angel to be free from the fetter of self? If they posses attributes, doesn't that imply that they have a self?


-Lyn
 
Upvote 0

Arthra

Baha'i
Feb 20, 2004
7,060
572
California
Visit site
✟86,812.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for your post!

Lyn wrote:

Is there any elaboration on which human traits and limitations are consumed, and which exalted attributes they possess?

My comment:

Baha'is believe the purpose of life on this earth is to acquire the attributes of God and this is done in a way by polishing the mirror of the heart in order that we can reflect some of the attributes of the Spiritual Sun of the Universe.. Polishing could mean removing as possible selfish and self centered ways.

Lyn:


What does it mean for an angel to be free from the fetter of self? If they posses attributes, doesn't that imply that they have a self?

My comment:

Selflessness and turning the heart toward God is part of this... Recognizing that my wishes .. my self concept get in the way of reflecting the attributes of God. The soul is always though in our belief capable of progressing but also remains unique.

- Art
 
Upvote 0

Wicked Willow

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
2,715
312
✟4,434.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
The Baha'i conception of angels reminds me of Buddhist lore with regards to the self-as-delusion.

(Well, at the end of the day, you can even find something similar in Thelema, with the Holy Guardian Angel (or "Silent Self") representing one's truest divine nature. It also corresponds with the Atman of Hinduism, and the Daemon of the ancient Greeks, among others.)
 
Upvote 0

Wicked Willow

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
2,715
312
✟4,434.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Angels are a myth, they do not exist. They are part of the Pagan religion, introduced into Judaism and Christianity: And Islam. The "messengers" being spoken of in bible scriptures are either people in heaven, or people on earth. Example: A Seraphim is a person of Judgement: Transliteral > Fiery being. The word Fire is often used parabolically to mean judgement. And also the word Cherubim means: Highest guardian being. Hell and trinitarianism is also part of the Pagan religion introduced into Christianity. The word "beast" in some places of the KJV is also not correctly translated. In some places it should read: Living beings. The reason for these introductions is because the Judaic Christians lost the war to the Catholic. The word Catholic means "Universal." The goddess Cath was the Etruscans sun goddess.

While I do not necessarily disagree with you on account of angels being myths, there are a few comments I'd like to make:

1.) "The" pagan religion? There has never been such a thing as the pagan religion - only diverse Non-Christian religions that were summarily denigrated as backwards and "pagan" (="country-dweller") when the church rose to power.

2.) I think you'll have a hard time arguing for the absence of angels (as something more than just people) in both the Bible and in Judaism.

3.) Why do you give the correct etymology of the word "catholic", only to proceed to provide a false etymological link to a pagan goddess based on mere appearances? Not that I'd go so far as to claim that Christianity as we know it is not a syncretistic religion - but we need to get our facts straight here. The term "catholic" has nothing whatsoever to do with Etruscian goddesses, but merely reflects the church's claim to being universal.
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,877
3,139
Australia
Visit site
✟916,780.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Angels are sent to help Christians, they are also sent as messengers to people who are open to God's direction. Note:

Act 10:1-5 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.

Angels are guides primarily, they guide people into a deeper relationship with God. When they show up that is, I am not suggesting that Christians are guided by angels 24 hours seven days a week. Very few people are privelaged enough to recieve revelation from angels. But angels know God, are sent by God, so can speed up a persons knowledge of God. They can share secrets about God to trusted individuals. Many Christians make claim to recieving visions from angels, and I find them very interesting visions generally; they often clear up questions that I may have personally about God. Angels generally feature in visions of heaven, hell, things that we do not experience now but one day will.
 
Upvote 0

GuardianShua

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2004
8,666
303
✟10,663.00
Faith
While I do not necessarily disagree with you on account of angels being myths, there are a few comments I'd like to make:

1.) "The" pagan religion? There has never been such a thing as the pagan religion - only diverse Non-Christian religions that were summarily denigrated as backwards and "pagan" (="country-dweller") when the church rose to power.

2.) I think you'll have a hard time arguing for the absence of angels (as something more than just people) in both the Bible and in Judaism.

3.) Why do you give the correct etymology of the word "catholic", only to proceed to provide a false etymological link to a pagan goddess based on mere appearances? Not that I'd go so far as to claim that Christianity as we know it is not a syncretistic religion - but we need to get our facts straight here. The term "catholic" has nothing whatsoever to do with Etruscian goddesses, but merely reflects the church's claim to being universal.
Pagan is a term that we have come to know these days. If the word "Angel-s" was translated into English the scripture would read "Messenger-s." The bible uses many symbols and parabols in it's text. Wings are symbolic of status. What do you think the word Cath ol ic means?
The letters "ic" means "pertaining to." So pertaining to whom? To Cath. So who is Cath? Some people believe that Mary is a goddess of light. The is why she has a halo and sun rays arould her.
 
Upvote 0

MichaelNZ

Servus Mariae
Nov 10, 2006
990
70
40
Dunedin, New Zealand
Visit site
✟27,170.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
In Hinduism, we have a race of beings called Gandharvas. Their wives are called Apsaras. The Gandharvas act as messengers between the Gods (devas) and human beings. They have superb musical skills and are also skilled in dance. Some are part animal, usually a bird or a horse, and it has been proposed that there is a link between the words gandharva and the Greek kentavros (the original Greek pronunciation of the word centaur. The first declension of nouns in Sanskrit end in -a, and seem to be equivalent to the first declension in Greek and Latin ending in -os or -us respectively.
 
Upvote 0

Wicked Willow

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
2,715
312
✟4,434.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Pagan is a term that we have come to know these days. If the word "Angel-s" was translated into English the scripture would read "Messenger-s." The bible uses many symbols and parabols in it's text. Wings are symbolic of status. What do you think the word Cath ol ic means?
The letters "ic" means "pertaining to." So pertaining to whom? To Cath. So who is Cath? Some people believe that Mary is a goddess of light. The is why she has a halo and sun rays arould her.
1. "Pagan" or "heathen" originally refered to country-dwellers, and was then used as a derogatory term for Non-Christians. It does not refer to a single, unified religion, neither now nor in the past.

2. Yes, "angel" means "messenger", and the Hebrew equivalent is "mal'akh". And the mal'akhim in the "Old Testament" are clearly not (just) human beings. Judaism includes the belief in mal'akhim, and has done so long before Christianity even appeared on the stage of world history.

3. Catholic: c.1350, "of the doctrines of the ancient Church," lit. "universally accepted," from L.L. catholicus "universal, general," from Gk. katholikos, from phrase kath' holou, from kata "about" + gen. of holos "whole". Applied to the Church in Rome c.1554, after the Reformation. (Source, emphasis mine)
There's just no conspiracy theory to be had here, LEAST of all one founded on spurious pseudo-etymologies. It's almost as bad as those beastly Chick tracts with their nonsense about "Allah the Moon God" and evil anti-christ popes worshipping Astarte as the virgin Mary.
Oh, and Cautha was a sun GOD, not a goddess. If you want to look for templates of the virgin Mary, look to the iconography of Isis and the boy Horus. (But don't take that one too far, either. Zealous "researchers" sometimes end up spouting nonsense about Horus being born of a virgin and having twelve followers, none of which is documented anywhere. It's another case of people making up the evidence they want to see, as with your Etruscan sun goddess.)
 
Upvote 0

Wicked Willow

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
2,715
312
✟4,434.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Angels are sent to help Christians, they are also sent as messengers to people who are open to God's direction. Note:

Act 10:1-5 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.

Angels are guides primarily, they guide people into a deeper relationship with God. When they show up that is, I am not suggesting that Christians are guided by angels 24 hours seven days a week. Very few people are privelaged enough to recieve revelation from angels. But angels know God, are sent by God, so can speed up a persons knowledge of God. They can share secrets about God to trusted individuals. Many Christians make claim to recieving visions from angels, and I find them very interesting visions generally; they often clear up questions that I may have personally about God. Angels generally feature in visions of heaven, hell, things that we do not experience now but one day will.
Yes, it seems to me as if they serve as intermediaries, primarily. As per the Bible, mortal beings (and even angels) are supposedly unable to behold God in His True Form without perishing: in Isaiah, the angels who are closest to God's Throne cover their eyes with an extra-pair of wings, and in Genesis (or was that Leviticus?), Moses isn't allowed to look at God, either. When the burning bush spoke, it was an angel acting as proxy, not God Himself. (cf. 2Moses 3,2)
 
Upvote 0

Wicked Willow

Well-Known Member
May 2, 2005
2,715
312
✟4,434.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
In Hinduism, we have a race of beings called Gandharvas. Their wives are called Apsaras. The Gandharvas act as messengers between the Gods (devas) and human beings. They have superb musical skills and are also skilled in dance. Some are part animal, usually a bird or a horse, and it has been proposed that there is a link between the words gandharva and the Greek kentavros (the original Greek pronunciation of the word centaur. The first declension of nouns in Sanskrit end in -a, and seem to be equivalent to the first declension in Greek and Latin ending in -os or -us respectively.
Amazing! I find it fascinating that so many religious/mythological concepts of the Indo-Europeans seem to be waaaaaay older than the particular images we're familiar with from classical antiquity onwards.
I also read somewhere that Homer's Iliad bears some distinct similarities to the Ramayana, just to mention another obvious example.
 
Upvote 0

GuardianShua

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2004
8,666
303
✟10,663.00
Faith
1. "Pagan" or "heathen" originally refered to country-dwellers, and was then used as a derogatory term for Non-Christians. It does not refer to a single, unified religion, neither now nor in the past.

2. Yes, "angel" means "messenger", and the Hebrew equivalent is "mal'akh". And the mal'akhim in the "Old Testament" are clearly not (just) human beings. Judaism includes the belief in mal'akhim, and has done so long before Christianity even appeared on the stage of world history.

3. Catholic: c.1350, "of the doctrines of the ancient Church," lit. "universally accepted," from L.L. catholicus "universal, general," from Gk. katholikos, from phrase kath' holou, from kata "about" + gen. of holos "whole". Applied to the Church in Rome c.1554, after the Reformation. (Source, emphasis mine)
There's just no conspiracy theory to be had here, LEAST of all one founded on spurious pseudo-etymologies. It's almost as bad as those beastly Chick tracts with their nonsense about "Allah the Moon God" and evil anti-christ popes worshipping Astarte as the virgin Mary.
Oh, and Cautha was a sun GOD, not a goddess. If you want to look for templates of the virgin Mary, look to the iconography of Isis and the boy Horus. (But don't take that one too far, either. Zealous "researchers" sometimes end up spouting nonsense about Horus being born of a virgin and having twelve followers, none of which is documented anywhere. It's another case of people making up the evidence they want to see, as with your Etruscan sun goddess.)
#3 is an interpretation. Below is a tip of an iceburg.


These quotes are from the Encyclopedia Americana,1961 edition.
"Words are frequently changed in an entirely arbitrary way, just for the sake of change, as is the case with taboo, and cant. The purpose is to deform the word in any possible way and render it unrecongnizable."
"Cant ,the secret language of a corporation or class of persons, such as criminals, hoboes, students, soldiers, railroaders, conspirators, and the like." This quote should have also included secret societies.
"Canopus. In Egyptian mythology, a water god, represented on vessels of a spherical shape." That is, the shape of a serpent.
"Cannibalism, Kan/i/bal/ism, a customary, socially approved practice, among certain barbarous peoples, of eating human flesh." "The fact that the older, learned term "anthropophagy" derives from the classic Greek anthropos (man) , and phagein (eat), suggests that from ancient times barbarous peoples were known to eat human flesh, or at least were accused of doing so."

Here is a list of proper names of some snakes.

Apostolepis: nick name, messenger snake.
Acanthophis: Adder's.
Canna, Pseudaspis: Mole snake.
Candidus, Bungarus.
Candoia: #1. Aspera, #2. Bibroni, #3. Carinata.
Caninus, Corallas: Emerald tree boa.
Cantherigerus, Alsophis.
Cantil, Agkistrodon bilineatus.
Cantori, Trimeresurus.
Canum, Gyalopion: Western hook-nosed.
Canus, Tropidophis.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Nihilo

Francophone Bibliovore
Jun 17, 2009
91
9
Tennessee
✟22,765.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
#3 is an interpretation. Below is a tip of an iceburg.


These quotes are from the Encyclopedia Americana,1961 edition.
"Words are frequently changed in an entirely arbitrary way, just for the sake of change, as is the case with taboo, and cant. The purpose is to deform the word in any possible way and render it unrecongnizable."
"Cant ,the secret language of a corporation or class of persons, such as criminals, hoboes, students, soldiers, railroaders, conspirators, and the like." This quote should have also included secret societies.
"Canopus. In Egyptian mythology, a water god, represented on vessels of a spherical shape." That is, the shape of a serpent.
"Cannibalism, Kan/i/bal/ism, a customary, socially approved practice, among certain barbarous peoples, of eating human flesh." "The fact that the older, learned term "anthropophagy" derives from the classic Greek anthropos (man) , and phagein (eat), suggests that from ancient times barbarous peoples were known to eat human flesh, or at least were accused of doing so."

Here is a list of proper names of some snakes.

Apostolepis: nick name, messenger snake.
Acanthophis: Adder's.
Canna, Pseudaspis: Mole snake.
Candidus, Bungarus.
Candoia: #1. Aspera, #2. Bibroni, #3. Carinata.
Caninus, Corallas: Emerald tree boa.
Cantherigerus, Alsophis.
Cantil, Agkistrodon bilineatus.
Cantori, Trimeresurus.
Canum, Gyalopion: Western hook-nosed.
Canus, Tropidophis.

Wicked Willow's etymology was not conjecture it is fact. The word Catholic comes from Greek roots adopted into Latin that mean "universal" and it had nothing to do with snakes, pagan gods, etc. If you want to say that some Mediterannean forms of pagan worship found their way into early Christianity than I would agree with you 100% but the word "Catholic" has nothing to do with what you are saying. It is you who are making bizarre conspiratorial conjectures and inventing your own etymology.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.