Angels and fallen angels

[tansy]

I wondered if any of you have got any thoughts or ideas about why God created angels who were capable of going against Him, and that presumably they (unlike us) have no hope of redemption?
Are angels' 'free will' the same as human's 'free will'?
Did the 'good' angels remain 'good', or did they prove themselves, as it were, and now cannot go against their desire to serve God?

 

[dysert]

I wondered if any of you have got any thoughts or ideas about why God created angels who were capable of going against Him, and that presumably they (unlike us) have no hope of redemption?
Are angels' 'free will' the same as human's 'free will'?
Did the 'good' angels remain 'good', or did they prove themselves, as it were, and now cannot go against their desire to serve God?

I have thought quite a bit about angels (holy and fallen), studied them, and taught several classes on them. Some of what I'm about to say is opinion, while some is based on Scripture (the astute reader will be able to discern the difference ;-)

I think God created angels with free will just as He created mankind with free will. He wanted creatures who were capable of loving Him freely.

Fallen angels have no hope of redemption because they were created as an "order" and not as a self-propagating race. The race can be redeemed (Rom. 5:18-19), but for the fallen angels to be redeemed, Jesus would have had to come as an angel and die for every fallen angel personally. Since instead He came as a man He was able to supply the atoning sacrifice for the entire human race.

I believe that the angels' choice was "locked in" at a certain time in history past, and they can no longer change their minds. This is not unprecedented because the same is true of humans. We have free will until the moment we die. After that, our choice is "locked in" for all eternity.

 

[tansy]

I have thought quite a bit about angels (holy and fallen), studied them, and taught several classes on them. Some of what I'm about to say is opinion, while some is based on Scripture (the astute reader will be able to discern the difference ;-)

I think God created angels with free will just as He created mankind with free will. He wanted creatures who were capable of loving Him freely.

Fallen angels have no hope of redemption because they were created as an "order" and not as a self-propagating race. The race can be redeemed (Rom. 5:18-19), but for the fallen angels to be redeemed, Jesus would have had to come as an angel and die for every fallen angel personally. Since instead He came as a man He was able to supply the atoning sacrifice for the entire human race.

I believe that the angels' choice was "locked in" at a certain time in history past, and they can no longer change their minds. This is not unprecedented because the same is true of humans. We have free will until the moment we die. After that, our choice is "locked in" for all eternity.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Do you think that maybe God allowed Satan to influence humans because the angels are supposed to worship God and have their 'jobs' as it were, and help and protect people...so that even though Satan and his cohorts went against that, God has to let it all play out to the end, one reason being that evil has to reach its fullest extent, so that love can reach its fullest extent?.....or something like that. Not explaining myself well here, I'm afraid . I think I mean a bit more than that but my brain's a bit frazzled at the moment.

 

[dysert]

Thanks, that makes sense.

Do you think that maybe God allowed Satan to influence humans because the angels are supposed to worship God and have their 'jobs' as it were, and help and protect people...so that even though Satan and his cohorts went against that, God has to let it all play out to the end, one reason being that evil has to reach its fullest extent, so that love can reach its fullest extent?.....or something like that. Not explaining myself well here, I'm afraid . I think I mean a bit more than that but my brain's a bit frazzled at the moment.

Tansy, I tend to avoid "why" questions because they almost always have no definitive answer. So I don't even ask, "Why did God allow satan to influence humans?" That leads into a long list of other "why" questions, like:

• Why did God create satan and his cohorts at all, since He knew they'd rebel?
• Why did God create humans, since He knew we'd rebel?
• Why did God wait so many thousands of years before the Incarnation instead of having Jesus come at the outset and institute the age of grace at the beginning?
• etc.

See my point? We can get all wrapped around the axle with unknowable answers once we start down the "why" path.

One thing I do know, God didn't *have* to let it all play out the way it has. He undoubtedly had an infinite number of ways He could have resolved things. The way He chose, though, is probably the best way.

 

[tansy]

Tansy, I tend to avoid "why" questions because they almost always have no definitive answer. So I don't even ask, "Why did God allow satan to influence humans?" That leads into a long list of other "why" questions, like:

• Why did God create satan and his cohorts at all, since He knew they'd rebel?
• Why did God create humans, since He knew we'd rebel?
• Why did God wait so many thousands of years before the Incarnation instead of having Jesus come at the outset and institute the age of grace at the beginning?
• etc.

See my point? We can get all wrapped around the axle with unknowable answers once we start down the "why" path.

One thing I do know, God didn't *have* to let it all play out the way it has. He undoubtedly had an infinite number of ways He could have resolved things. The way He chose, though, is probably the best way.

Well, true what you say. Even so, sometimes asking questions and thinking about things (and enquiring of God, of course) can lead to a little more or deeper understanding, not always getting definitive and precise answers on specific questions, but sometimes things tangential to that...and maybe things more important...if that makes sense.

 

[dysert]

Well, true what you say. Even so, sometimes asking questions and thinking about things (and enquiring of God, of course) can lead to a little more or deeper understanding, not always getting definitive and precise answers on specific questions, but sometimes things tangential to that...and maybe things more important...if that makes sense.

You make perfect sense. It's just a quirk of mine.

 

[tansy]

You make perfect sense. It's just a quirk of mine.

Thanks And people have always told me I think too much or delve too much! However, surely it's the people who dig who might find the hidden treasure! Perhaps I'm taking the lazy way out by asking other people...saves me work LOL

 

[James Is Back]

I wondered if any of you have got any thoughts or ideas about why God created angels who were capable of going against Him, and that presumably they (unlike us) have no hope of redemption?
Are angels' 'free will' the same as human's 'free will'?
Did the 'good' angels remain 'good', or did they prove themselves, as it were, and now cannot go against their desire to serve God?

Maybe these articles can shed light on your questions:

Why did God allow Satan and the demons to sin?
Why doesn't God give the fallen angels a chance to repent?

 

[tansy]

Maybe these articles can shed light on your questions:

Why did God allow Satan and the demons to sin?
Why doesn't God give the fallen angels a chance to repent?

Thanks

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I wondered if any of you have got any thoughts or ideas about why God created angels who were capable of going against Him, and that presumably they (unlike us) have no hope of redemption?
Are angels' 'free will' the same as human's 'free will'?
Did the 'good' angels remain 'good', or did they prove themselves, as it were, and now cannot go against their desire to serve God?

Mankind are created as vessels. Angels were not made in His image so they don't have the same compacity to acquire another life to redeem them. The angels that didn't rebel (2/3rds of them) don't need redemption, they are for our good, while the other 1/3 are the demise of many of mankind's life and will be judged accordingly.
When I look at the first book written for mankind (Job) it plays out the scene for us as to the general principles what the choice is about. We need to be removed from our own choices. Our only choice is for or against God, just as the angels were, but God will come in to fill the need. The 'bad' angels aren't so lucky, while the 'good' angels were assigned positions to aid us. I don't think they can move from one post to another. Otoh, we are notorious for not staying at our post.

 

[tansy]

Mankind are created as vessels. Angels were not made in His image so they don't have the same compacity to acquire another life to redeem them. The angels that didn't rebel (2/3rds of them) don't need redemption, they are for our good, while the other 1/3 are the demise of many of mankind's life and will be judged accordingly.
When I look at the first book written for mankind (Job) it plays out the scene for us as to the general principles what the choice is about. We need to be removed from our own choices. Our only choice is for or against God, just as the angels were, but God will come in to fill the need. The 'bad' angels aren't so lucky, while the 'good' angels were assigned positions to aid us. I don't think they can move from one post to another. Otoh, we are notorious for not staying at our post.

Oh yes, of course, I'd forgotten momentarily mankind was made in God's image, but angels aren't. Thanks. Actually, that's made me think about some other things...one has to put everything into the overall perspective (such as one perceives it)

 

[James Is Back]

Thanks

YW

 

[Dale]

I'm not sure the whole notion of fallen angels can be proved from Scripture.

It's a Catholic tradition but it's not clearly laid out in Scripture.

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[TillICollapse]

Would you want a modern possible eyewitness account which may tie directly into scripture ?

 

[Radagast]

I'm not sure the whole notion of fallen angels can be proved from Scripture.

2 Peter 2:4: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Rev 12:7-9: Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

2 Peter 2:4: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Rev 12:7-9: Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

So Revelation 12 is about a past event?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

I have always found Angelology such a strange branch of theology, as it seems to be 80-90% pure speculation from a handful of verses.

 

[PaladinValer]

So Revelation 12 is about a past event?

It would appear least that part of it is.

Is the Devil in heaven anymore? He tempted Jesus in the desert, and Jesus defeated his machinations with His resurrection, defeating sin and death at the same time.

Can anything imperfect be in heaven? No, according to Holy Scripture. Unless God summons the Devil to appear before Him in the heaven courts, then its exceptionally unlikely the Devil would be there. Sts. Peter, James the Greater, and John could hardly stand being in His Light, and I would argue they were more righteous than the Devil. Imagine how uncomfortable it would be for the Devil to be in the radiance of Heaven, illumined by the Light of God, filled with His glory!

 

[Radagast]

So Revelation 12 is about a past event?

Yes.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So Revelation 12 is about a past event?

It could be past to include the time of Christ being caught up to heaven and also future to midtrib for the beginning of the rapture of overcomers, which also brings it back to Rev 1-3 for more detailed account.