"...And your Lord is never forgetful..."

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

More to the point of this thread, yesterday was the 3rd anniversary of the ongoing genocide in Syria.

[youtube]RBQ-IoHfimQ[/youtube]

^Just repeating this video since it was buried.

Select captions if it doesn't automatically do it for you:

[youtube]L9O8j9QPZc8[/youtube]

 

[dcalling]

I do not find all sort of answers. The Quran uses yawm for different time periods. Therfore the Quran and the explanation i gave is valid b the Grammar and the content in the Quran.

In the Bible it has to be literal six days or else more problems will arise. You might admit there are massive errors however the fact that you cannot give an answer show this is an error you cannot account for.

But leave it at this. There is no reason to get into a debate were we will go in circles and waste five pages.

Hi Aristocles X,
I think I got my Quran translation from the top website and it is going as days, also some Muslim site I went to not too long ago was upset Muslims became too modern to interpret that as periods

Also in the Torah the prophets often refer years as days, so I never claim I know if the day in gen is literal or not, as we all say "God knows best".

But let's leave it as is, as none of us will be able to convince each other

 

[dcalling]

^Just repeating this video since it was buried.

Sometimes I have a hard time understanding what you are trying to do.

The Jesus teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves, love and pray for our enemies. It might seems strange but it works. The first Christians that was under persecution didn't resist at all, and as the Quran recorded they triumphed.

Look at the rebels (especially the foreign rebels) in Syria. They have so much hate in them, they beheaded government troops, beheaded civilians, now even starting to beheading/suicide against themselves. They managed to make Assad look not as bad in comparison.

Even if your post succeeded, what will it do? Send more Muslim man to kill each other? Which rebel unit will you let them go to? If they went to opposite rebel factions they will just cancel each other out.

Syria is a mess, and just fanning emotions won't work. Only God can help them now, and the best way to help is pray, let them be filled with God's grace, and maybe some of them will realize, why are we killing our brothers?

 

[Aristocles X]

Greetings dcalling

Hi Aristocles X,
was upset Muslims became too modern to interpret that as periods

That is irrelevant to our discussion. But even to entertain this. The interpretation is gave i not a modern one.

Ibn Taymiyya in thee 14th century pointed out the days in the Quran could mean any period and not literal 24 hour periods.

Also in the Torah the prophets often refer years as days, so I never claim I know if the day in gen is literal or not, as we all say "God knows best".

What the prophets refered to is simply irrelevant aswell. If you were to give the days in Genesis 1 a period of million of years instead of 24hours alot of scientific errors would arise and it would in no way solve the 6000year old error as you would still have human beings being that old.

 

[Aristocles X]

The Jesus teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves, love and pray for our enemies. It might seems strange but it works. The first Christians that was under persecution didn't resist at all, and as the Quran recorded they triumphed.

I am sorry but you need to giving the Quran you'r own interpretation. The sources for the first christians are late, there are no historicla documents from the first century that records there even were any christians nor from the early second century. The Quran verse you have in mind about the early christians "triumphing", i am quiet familiar with the verses you have in mind(3:55, 61:14).

As for you'r claim about what Jesus teaches it presupposes that the Gospels are historical and accurate something that is far far from the truth.

As for turning the other cheeks works, that is nonsensical and history as proven otherwise.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

To lighten the mood a bit (I'm not one for the dailymail but the link has the best pictures I could find):

27-day-old infant and ~3-year-old sister were pulled out of the rubble of their home destroyed by Assad's barrel bombs back in January.

Newborn baby pulled from the rubble after Syrian airstrike is pictured alive and well one week on | Mail Online

Just shows that there's always hope even during the darkest of times and that children are amazing.

 

[dcalling]

Greetings dcalling
That is irrelevant to our discussion. But even to entertain this. The interpretation is gave i not a modern one.

Ibn Taymiyya in thee 14th century pointed out the days in the Quran could mean any period and not literal 24 hour periods.

What the prophets refered to is simply irrelevant aswell. If you were to give the days in Genesis 1 a period of million of years instead of 24hours alot of scientific errors would arise and it would in no way solve the 6000year old error as you would still have human beings being that old.

I am fine with human history been 6000 years old, unless you have concrete prof that it is much older. As I said the earliest recorded is about 5000 years old, and Carbon dating is not totally accurate.

But I don't claim that the human history is only 6000 years, I would say it might be. And the Bible account of Jesus's line may or may not be totally accurate.

 

[dcalling]

To lighten the mood a bit (I'm not one for the dailymail but the link has the best pictures I could find):

27-day-old infant and ~3-year-old sister were pulled out of the rubble of their home destroyed by Assad's barrel bombs back in January.


Just shows that there's always hope even during the darkest of times and that children are amazing.

Thank God for that! After I had kids I just can't see children die any more. I just wish they can all stop fighting, the bombings, the suicide bombings, it is all in the hand of God.

 

[Aristocles X]

I am fine with human history been 6000 years old, unless you have concrete prof that it is much older. As I said the earliest recorded is about 5000 years old, and Carbon dating is not totally accurate.

The earliest record is not about 5000years and carbon dating is accurate. It is the protestant bibleworshiping church understanding of science that is inaccurate. This is the problem of having Kent Hovind/Ray Comfort/Ken Ham and other people on youtube. They cause you to reject science.

However this talk has lost its touch. So i am just going to stop responding.

 

[dcalling]

I am sorry but you need to giving the Quran you'r own interpretation. The sources for the first christians are late, there are no historicla documents from the first century that records there even were any christians nor from the early second century. The Quran verse you have in mind about the early christians "triumphing", i am quiet familiar with the verses you have in mind(3:55, 61:14).

As for you'r claim about what Jesus teaches it presupposes that the Gospels are historical and accurate something that is far far from the truth.

As for turning the other cheeks works, that is nonsensical and history as proven otherwise.

Why is it my own interpretation? It is what the Quran said, the Christians triumphed (or dominated).
The sources for the first Christians might be late, some say there is no prof of existence of Jesus, but it doesn't matter, as I believe the message is correct.

Also I have studied all the verses in Quran related to Torah and Gospel, and there is no mention that they are lost, in fact Muhammad himself used Torah to judge some Jews, and he put them in very high standards as well. In this respect the Baha'is are better followers of Muhammad than most Muslims

 

[dcalling]

The earliest record is not about 5000years and carbon dating is accurate. It is the protestant bibleworshiping church understanding of science that is inaccurate. This is the problem of having Kent Hovind/Ray Comfort/Ken Ham and other people on youtube. They cause you to reject science.

However this talk has lost its touch. So i am just going to stop responding.

I did my own research, the carbon dating depends on that the c12/c14 ratios been constant, and can only do organic forms, the limit is about 45,000 (just go wiki carbon dating). It is much accurate when you combine them with known history events . But let's stop it here.

 

[Aristocles X]

I did my own research, the carbon dating depends on that the c12/c14 ratios been constant, and can only do organic forms, the limit is about 45,000 (just go wiki carbon dating). It is much accurate when you combine them with known history events . But let's stop it here.

It is very nice that you know how carbon dating work which you have researched by reading a wikipedia article. However anything you stated do not how c14 is unrealible which it is not. As for its limit being 35000-70000 that is due to the decays with a halflife that happens each 5000years. However we were not talking about dating it for that long. However this limit as far far back enough to disprove the claim of you'r bible.

Radiocarbon dating has been repeatedly tested, demonstrating its accuracy. It is calibrated by tree-ring data, which gives a nearly exact calendar for more than 11,000 years back. It has also been tested on items for which the age is known through historical records, such as parts of the Dead Sea scrolls and some wood from an Egyptian tomb (MNSU n.d.; Watson 2001). Multiple samples from a single object have been dated independently, yielding consistent results. Radiocarbon dating is also concordant with other dating techniques (e.g., Bard et al. 1990).

CD011: Carbon dating.

 

[dcalling]

It is very nice that you know how carbon dating work which you have researched by reading a wikipedia article. However anything you stated do not how c14 is unrealible which it is not. As for its limit being 35000-70000 that is due to the decays with a halflife that happens each 5000years. However we were not talking about dating it for that long. However this limit as far far back enough to disprove the claim of you'r bible.

If you read how carbon dating works you will now c14 is only 'almost constant', it is not totally constant, no one knows how much cosmetic rays fluctuates over the years.

About the bible part, do we have any definite human remain that can be dated back 6000 years? And even if we found one, it can only prove the tree Luke provided is wrong, but nothing else.

CD011: Carbon dating.

"It is calibrated by tree-ring data, which gives a nearly exact calendar for more than 11,000 years back", I wonder which tree is 11000 years old. The only way they can do it is using different trees of same region of different period. But how do they say some piece of trunk is over 10000 years old?

 

[dlamberth]

I am fine with human history been 6000 years old, unless you have concrete prof that it is much older. As I said the earliest recorded is about 5000 years old, and Carbon dating is not totally accurate.

Here's one they date back to 10,000 BC.

Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

 

[dcalling]

Here's one they date back to 10,000 BC.

Göbekli Tepe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

Thanks! Now that looks like very strong evidence of people around 10000BCE

It uses both pedogenic carbonate coatings and burned charcoal so it is likely the date is correct.
This leads to 3 possible conclusions:
1. Luke missed some generations, or Luke's original material (possibly book of Enoch) missed some generations.
2. Both Carbon dating and pedogenic carbonate coatings were wrong due to other conditions (variation of cosmetic rays etc., unlikely).
3. Adam is not the first person God created.

The reason #3 is there is, when Cain killed Abe, Cain fears others will kill him. He didn't say his brothers/sisters will kill him, he said others. So God might have created other humans prior to Adam.

 

[smaneck]

About the bible part, do we have any definite human remain that can be dated back 6000 years?

Uh, yeah. Lots of them. But here is one found in England:
Red Lady of Paviland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dcalling]

Uh, yeah. Lots of them. But here is one found in England:
Red Lady of Paviland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Combined with Göbekli Tepe, this makes it extremely likely human history is older than 6000 years.

This leads to 2 possible conclusions (I have removed the middle one from previous post):
1. Luke missed some generations, or Luke's original material (possibly book of Enoch) missed some generations.
2. Adam is not the first person God created.

The reason #2 is there is, when Cain killed Abe, Cain fears others will kill him. He didn't say his brothers/sisters will kill him, he said others. So God might have created other humans prior to Adam.

 

[smaneck]

The reason #2 is there is, when Cain killed Abe, Cain fears others will kill him. He didn't say his brothers/sisters will kill him, he said others. So God might have created other humans prior to Adam.

Or more likely, the whole story is a myth. That is not to say it is untrue, it means its meaning goes beyond the literal meaning of the story. We know people started out as hunters and gatherers. Yet Adam is depicted as the first farmer when he is expelled from the garden. He has two sons, Abel the herder and Cain the farmer. Unlike virtually every other text in antiquity, the bible seems to take the side of the herder and the farmer is depicted as the aggressor. The farmer kills the herder and is told to take up a nomadic lifestyle himself. But instead according to the Bible he founds the first city, thus demonstrating that civilization is founded in sin. That same theme is carried over in the story of Abraham, our virtuous nomad, versus the sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[dlamberth]

Or more likely, the whole story is a myth.

This!!



.

 

[dcalling]

Or more likely, the whole story is a myth. That is not to say it is untrue, it means its meaning goes beyond the literal meaning of the story. We know people started out as hunters and gatherers. Yet Adam is depicted as the first farmer when he is expelled from the garden. He has two sons, Abel the herder and Cain the farmer. Unlike virtually every other text in antiquity, the bible seems to take the side of the herder and the farmer is depicted as the aggressor. The farmer kills the herder and is told to take up a nomadic lifestyle himself. But instead according to the Bible he founds the first city, thus demonstrating that civilization is founded in sin. That same theme is carried over in the story of Abraham, our virtuous nomad, versus the sinful cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Well, if humans are created, they might either start as farmers or hunters. But maybe you are right, it has some hidden meaning in it, who knows. That is why I usually focus on the Message