And then along came Mary...

[Benedicta00]

This woman was making a big deal about Mary and He was just making it clear that they were more blessed who hear the Word of God and keep it.
He was trying to focus their attention to the more important spiritual matters.

Sounds like more of a comparison.

Look at the definition here, this will help:
Luke 11:28
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

3304 menou/nge menounge {men-oon'-geh}
Meaning: 1) nay surely, nay rather​

Here's a similar situation only a different word was translated rather :

Luke 10:20
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,
that the spirits are subject unto you;
but rather rejoice, because your names
are written in heaven.

3123 ma/llon mallon {mal'-lon}
Meaning: 1) more, to a greater degree, rather 1a) much, by far 1b) rather, sooner 1c) more willingly, more readily, sooner ​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jesus is making it clear that being a doer of the Word is more of a blessing.

Was Mary blessed? Yes.
Is it more blessed to be one who hears the
Word of God and does it? Yes

It doesn't take away from the fact that Mary is blessed.
He was not saying Mary isn't blessed.

He was putting things into proper perspective.
Just like we often do with our children.
imo

No, I disagree. Jesus gives us zero indication that he was warding off veneration to Mary.

If he was, he was wrong becuase Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaimed, "Blessed are you among woman and blessed is the fruit of you womb Jesus..." (Pretty close to what the woman jesu "rebuked" said.) And John the baptist leaped for joy at the sound of Mary's salutation, so umm, was he wrong for leaping at the sound of her voice?

I recall no rebuke given to Elizabeth and John the Baptist for them venerating the Mother of God.

So this all becomes a huge problem for your interpretation.

That and the properly translated word here being "indeed," not rather. Jesus did not speak our English modern language.

So the right word used, "indeed", coincides with Luke and it does not contradict it.

So in context, Jesus said "indeed, My mother hears the word of God and keeps it", unless you think Mary didn't hear the word of God and she didn't keep in when the angle spoke it to her?

 

[sunlover1]

No, I disagree. Jesus gives us zero indication that he was warding off veneration to Mary.

If he was, he was wrong becuase Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaimed, "Blessed are you among woman and blessed is the fruit of you womb Jesus..." (Pretty close to what the woman jesu "rebuked" said.) And John the baptist leaped for joy at the sound of Mary's salutation, so umm, was he wrong for leaping at the sound of her voice?

I recall no rebuke given to Elizabeth and John the Baptist for them venerating the Mother of God.

So this all becomes a huge problem for your interpretation.

That and the properly translated word here being "indeed," not rather. Jesus did not speak our English modern language.

So the right word used, "indeed", coincides with Luke and it does not contradict it.

So in context, Jesus said "indeed, My mother hears the word of God and keeps it", unless you think Mary didn't hear the word of God and she didn't keep in when the angle spoke it to her?

No problem.
We'll translate it your way:
Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things,
a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice,
and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee,
and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea indeed, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

I changed the rather to indeed, it still says the same thing.
I don't understand what the problem is with Jesus saying, "Hey, you're even more blessed if you focus on hearing and obeying the Word of God, rather than my family.

God exalts His Word above all, even above Mary.

Here's how it's translated in several translations, by Biblical scholars.

Luke 11:28 NAB
28 He replied, "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Luke 11:28 NIV
28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

Luke 11:28 RSV
28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Luke 11:28 YLT
28 And he said, 'Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping it!'

Luke 11:28 NLT
28 He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."
​

He wasn't talking about Mary's obedience.
Mary is one of those Jesus came to save.
One.
One of many.

God loves us all just as much as He loves Mary.

 

[Benedicta00]

No problem.
We'll translate it your way:
Luke 11:27-28
27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things,
a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice,
and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee,
and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea indeed, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

I changed the rather to indeed, it still says the same thing.
I don't understand what the problem is with Jesus saying, "Hey, you're even more blessed if you focus on hearing and obeying the Word of God, rather than my family.

God exalts His Word above all, even above Mary.

Here's how it's translated in several translations, by Biblical scholars.

Luke 11:28 NAB
28 He replied, "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Luke 11:28 NIV
28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

Luke 11:28 RSV
28 But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

Luke 11:28 YLT
28 And he said, 'Yea, rather, happy those hearing the word of God, and keeping it!'

Luke 11:28 NLT
28 He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."
​

He wasn't talking about Mary's obedience.
Mary is one of those Jesus came to save.
One.
One of many.

God loves us all just as much as He loves Mary.

But this doesn't work in light of Luke.

You can interpret the verse to mean Jesus was saying we all are blessed if we keep God's word, there is no error in that, we are.... but to jump to making a claim, especially in light if Luke, that says he was rebuking the crowd for honoring Mary makes no sense in light of Luke.

In Luke Elizabeth and her unborn son gave her honor and Mary said that not only is she blessed but she is blessed for all generations. So come on, you know Jesus was not contradicting himself. saying we are all as blessed as Mary if we keep the word of God. I mean we are blessed too, (which is all Christ was saying) but we are not blessed in the way Mary was, now are we?

 

[IamAdopted]

So he was denying having a mother at all?

Unless you think the crowd was trying to venerate Mary or that Mary showed up looking to be venerated, your interpretation just don't wash.

What did you read out of the scripture? I didn't say anything. I just quoted scripture. Once again like I said seperating the earthly from the heavenly.. Mary being His earthly mother and all those whom do the Fathers will being His heavenly brothers and sister and mother..Showin us once again that it is not in the earthly binds that bind us to Christ but In the Spirit by His Spirit with in us..

 

[sunlover1]

But this doesn't work in light of Luke.

You can interpret the verse to mean Jesus was saying we all are blessed if we keep God's word, there is no error in that, we are.... but to jump to making a claim, especially in light if Luke, that says he was rebuking the crowd for honoring Mary makes no sense in light of Luke.

In Luke Elizabeth and her unborn son gave her honor and Mary said that not only is she blessed but she is blessed for all generations. So come on, you know Jesus was not contradicting himself. saying we are all as blessed as Mary if we keep the word of God. I mean we are blessed too, (which is all Christ was saying) but we are not blessed in the way Mary was, now are we?

No, I did not say he was rebuking anyone for 'venerating' mary.
No one was venerating anyone.

No, he was correcting her for which is more important in the big picture of things.
imo.

 

[IamAdopted]

But this doesn't work in light of Luke.

You can interpret the verse to mean Jesus was saying we all are blessed if we keep God's word, there is no error in that, we are.... but to jump to making a claim, especially in light if Luke, that says he was rebuking the crowd for honoring Mary makes no sense in light of Luke.

In Luke Elizabeth and her unborn son gave her honor and Mary said that not only is she blessed but she is blessed for all generations. So come on, you know Jesus was not contradicting himself. saying we are all as blessed as Mary if we keep the word of God. I mean we are blessed too, (which is all Christ was saying) but we are not blessed in the way Mary was, now are we?

Of course we are.. Jesus said we are.. He even calls those whom do the will of His father His mother , brother and sister,. Jesus had not been born yet when her cousin praised her for carrying her Lord.. They were waiting for the promise of the Savior.. This happned in their lifetime.. What a blessing. What a praise.. It had nothing to do with Mary but more to do with the coming King that they all had been so eagerly awaiting..That is why Mary said she would be blessed.. They had been waiting for quite some time..Just as we eagerly await the rapture.. and the King coming back to restore His earth to what it should be..

 

[Benedicta00]

No, I did not say he was rebuking anyone for 'venerating' mary.
No one was venerating anyone.

No, he was correcting her for which is more important in the big picture of things.
imo.

Well you need to read your counterparts here who say Jesus specifically was heading off veneration.

Again, it makes no sense in light of Luke.

And in the great scheme of things, we do not have to assume a false dichotomy into Jesus words.

He was not teaching us either it's Mary or it's His word.

Mary is who she is to Him and we are who we are to Him and Jesus loves us all but I am not Hs mother nor his His mother is not me.

He holds her in his heart and he hold me in his heart and it would behove anyone to try to say how he views either of us based on that verse.

What we can agree on in the verse is God loves us all and we are all blessed if we follow him.

I fail to see how this verse has anything to do with how he feels about Mary.

 

[Benedicta00]

Of course we are.. Jesus said we are.. He even calls those whom do the will of His father His mother , brother and sister,. Jesus had not been born yet when her cousin praised her for carrying her Lord.. They were waiting for the promise of the Savior.. This happned in their lifetime.. What a blessing. What a praise.. It had nothing to do with Mary but more to do with the coming King that they all had been so eagerly awaiting..That is why Mary said she would be blessed.. They had been waiting for quite some time..Just as we eagerly await the rapture.. and the King coming back to restore His earth to what it should be..

What we can agree on in the verse is God loves us all and we are all blessed if we follow him.

I fail to see how this verse has anything to do with how he feels about Mary.

 

[Benedicta00]

What did you read out of the scripture? I didn't say anything. I just quoted scripture. Once again like I said seperating the earthly from the heavenly.. Mary being His earthly mother and all those whom do the Fathers will being His heavenly brothers and sister and mother..Showin us once again that it is not in the earthly binds that bind us to Christ but In the Spirit by His Spirit with in us..

I read that Mary was there wanting to talk to Jesus and someone in the crowd let him know that His was mother was there.

Now... just how do you get that she was looking for veneration or the crowd was looking to venerate her?

Well?

 

[sunlover1]

Well you need to read your counterparts here who say Jesus specifically was heading off veneration.

Well, although I do (hopefully) have some
friends here, I try to think for myself.
I didn't feel that He was as concerned with
Mary as He was concerned that He made
His point about the Word of God and obedience.

What we can agree on in the verse is God loves us all and we are all blessed if we follow him.

Amen.
We are so very blessed, and yet we all
forget that so often!
If we have a PC, a warm room, a fridge full of food, more than we need...
that tells you a ton.


You know, you brought up a very good
question earlier about
whether we are as blessed as Mary.
I think Scripture should show us that
answer.
I

fail to see how this verse has anything to do with how he feels about Mary

I think the only thing it shows is how he feels about anyone in comparison to His Word.
Had the woman been saying how wonderful
John the Baptist was, or how wonderful
anyone was, I don't know that it would
have mattered.
But then again, maybe it did matter, because
He did choose to use Mary for this
example.

But still, one cannot compare anything
on this earth with God
and His Word.
There is none beside Him.

Maybe that was His point.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, although I do (hopefully) have some
friends here, I try to think for myself.
I didn't feel that He was as concerned with
Mary as He was concerned that He made
His point about the Word of God and obedience.


Amen.
We are so very blessed, and yet we all
forget that so often!
If we have a PC, a warm room, a fridge full of food, more than we need...
that tells you a ton.


You know, you brought up a very good
question earlier about
whether we are as blessed as Mary.
I think Scripture should show us that
answer.
I
I think the only thing it shows is how he feels about anyone in comparison to His Word.
Had the woman been saying how wonderful
John the Baptist was, or how wonderful
anyone was, I don't know that it would
have mattered.
But then again, maybe it did matter, because
He did choose to use Mary for this
example.

But still, one cannot compare anything
on this earth with God
and His Word.
There is none beside Him.

Maybe that was His point.

And I wouldn't disagree and I'm sure Mary herself said "preach it son..."

I'm just trying to deal with this preposterous notion that Jesus had to put Mary in her place as if she sought to up stage him.

And I'm trying to deal with this unbalanced notion that we can't possible give any credit what so ever to anyone or anything other than Jesus.

That is a neurotic impression.

 

[IamAdopted]

I read that Mary was there wanting to talk to Jesus and someone in the crowd let him know that His was mother was there.

Now... just how do you get that she was looking for veneration or the crowd was looking to venerate her?

Well?

Veneration? I never said anything about that. I said He was seperating the earthly from the spiritual.. He wasn't putting Mary in her place. He was showing that those whom do the will of the Father are just as important to Him. That they have the same place as Mary in His Fathers heart and eyes.. That she is not above any of us but yet she is neither below any of us.. I don't know where this vereration came from..

 

[Benedicta00]

Veneration? I never said anything about that. I said He was seperating the earthly from the spiritual.. He wasn't putting Mary in her place. He was showing that those whom do the will of the Father are just as important to Him. That they have the same place as Mary in His Fathers heart and eyes.. That she is not above any of us but yet she is neither below any of us.. I don't know where this vereration came from..

Okay.

I disagree that he was needing to do that at all. No one saw Mary in a disordered way.

 

[sunlover1]

And I wouldn't disagree and I'm sure Mary herself said "preach it son..."

I'm just trying to deal with this preposterous notion that Jesus had to put Mary in her place as if she sought to up stage him.

And I'm trying to deal with this unbalanced notion that we can't possible give any credit what so ever to anyone or anything other than Jesus.

That is a neurotic impression.

No, Mary would never try to upstage Jesus.
I'm sure she always pointed towards Him.

 

[repentant]

repentant, in more than one version.
He was saying blessed is ANYONE who hears & obeys, not just "the womb that bore him"..

In any English version. The original Greek does not say rather. Also I never said it was just the womb that bore Him. I was making the statement that "the womb that bore Him" was blessed because she obeyed God.

 

[sunlover1]

In any English version. The original Greek does not say rather. Also I never said it was just the womb that bore Him. I was making the statement that "the womb that bore Him" was blessed because she obeyed God.

Every English version of the Bible mistranslated the verse, but you have the
correct translation?
No offence but doesn't that sound odd
to yourself?

There must be a reason that the verse
was universally translated this way.

 

[Proeliator]

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

So lets examine this. It's already been said in this thread that the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture. So by that logic this is all true. Now, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost, thus inspired. She said all of this about Mary. Mary tells of what will happen later, of her being called blessed. But then people come along and are saying we should not venerate Mary. So why do you directly in the face of Scripture say this? You take something else out of its context, and use it in a way that would directly contradict another part of Scripture, which was very specific.
And you can;t talk about the separation of physical from spiritual here, because in this case it can't happen.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his sleep, saying: Joseph, son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is conceived in her, is of the Holy Ghost.

Mary didn't conceive by physical means, BUT BY spiritual means. Unless once again you want to directly contradict clearly written Scripture.

 

[Rick Otto]

the subsequent translations to English? Are they Mis-translations? Can you explain their uniformity of error?
Ya gotta admit, it is a curious error, if that's what it is, eh? I just wondered what your opinion of that phenomena is bro, before I go parsin' Greek.

Proeliator, venerate her till ya drop.
Call her blessed every day.
Just keep her in perspectiveas she is "in the face of scripture", that's all.


"No, I disagree. Jesus gives us zero indication that he was warding off veneration to Mary."
>>>OK, Legend, you disagree.
.............................................................
"If he was, he was wrong becuase Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit exclaimed, "Blessed are you among woman and blessed is the fruit of you womb Jesus..." (Pretty close to what the woman jesu "rebuked" said.)"
>>>>Legend, close is good with horshoes & hand grenades, but not scripture. The other woman proclaimed paps & womb as blessed, not Mary's obedient personality.
...................................................

"And John the baptist leaped for joy at the sound of Mary's salutation, so umm, was he wrong for leaping at the sound of her voice?"
>>>Why would he be wrong? Do I come off as some punitive mind control freak that froths at the mouth everytime someone mentions how cool Mary is/was? You got me all wrong.
...........................................................
"I recall no rebuke given to Elizabeth and John the Baptist for them venerating the Mother of God. "
If a simple salutation & a leap = veneration, no prob, but some devotees don't know when to get up off their knees & stop kissin' statues, etc.
...........................................................
"So this all becomes a huge problem for your interpretation."
>>>In your opinion.
................................................................
"That and the properly translated word here being "indeed," not rather. Jesus did not speak our English modern language."
>>>That's right., and we don't speak Koine Greek, so to assume that "indeed" does not indicate what follows is significant addendum, we should mention that ancient Greeks didn't take Ritalin or watch TV (not that you do or would, or that's there's anything WRONG with that).
..............................................................
"So in context, Jesus said "indeed, My mother hears the word of God and keeps it", unless you think Mary didn't hear the word of God and she didn't keep in when the angle spoke it to her?"
>>>Or unless I sanely think He was saying obedient persons are more blessed than human organs ever can be.
............................................................

 

[Proeliator]

"I recall no rebuke given to Elizabeth and John the Baptist for them venerating the Mother of God. "
If a simple salutation & a leap = veneration, no prob, but some devotees don't know when to get up off their knees & stop kissin' statues, etc.

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord. " Is a "simple salutation"? The unborn child leaping for joy is simple too I guess?

All prayer should be done from your knees when possible. It's all about showing respect. And those that venerate Mary, would much rather kiss her real feet than those of a statue, but the intentions of their total thanks gets to her I'd bet.

 

[PassthePeace1]

You know, I have been Catholic for about 6 years now...and I don't ever recall anyone kissing a statue...with the except of the cross during Holy Week, and alot of Bible kissing.

I sure it must happen, but don't think it is as common as some non-catholics think...although having said that, don't see anything wrong with it either.