And then along came Mary...

[sunlover1]

I don't think you understood what I was saying. Jesus didn't become God because of Mary, Jesus used Mary as a vessel, like a ladder, to come down to earth.

Now anytime I've seen a non-catholic use this term (vessel) they've been accused of dishonoring mary.

Thank you for using those words.
It's not dishonoring, it's accurate.
Mary was the vessel used by God to
send us Emmanuel.

I never even dared to say that before for
fear of being irreverant.

 

[IamAdopted]

He said who is my mother, who is my brother? One who does the will of God.

Mary did the will of God, didn't she? So I guess that makes her what? His mother?

Well of course she is His mother, but it makes her part of the family of God.

So how do you get out of this that Jesus was teaching us something negative about Mary?

That is what is very baffling here, that you are.

Is it because you are anti Mary?

The truth of the matter IAA, Jesus was merely using hyperbole. Saying that we are part of the family of God when we hear him and when we keep his word.

He was contrasting John where he said, he who keeps my commandments, I will no longer call salve but friend.

Actually IAA, this verse is not about Mary the person, at all, neither positive or negative.

It's about those who hear the word of God and who keeps it... they are considered family to God, not just salves of His law.

There is nothing to fear if you view Mary as being part of God's family.

Whom ever said she was not.. All who do the will of the Father and are born again are part of His body. His bride. Not one higher than the other.. For the toe is just as importand as the eye.. Those of us that are born again are the body of Christ all with our own gifts and callings to bring to completion What God has set. Mary being one part of this Body and all the rest that followed Him the same.. Even those whom believed in Him before He came.. Abraham and Sarah and David and Daniel and the List goes on..

 

[Benedicta00]

Now anytime I've seen a non-catholic use this term (vessel) they've been accused of dishonoring mary.

Thank you for using those words.
It's not dishonoring, it's accurate.
Mary was the vessel used by God to
send us Emmanuel.

I never even dared to say that before for
fear of being irreverant.

She is the vessel but a vessel of honor and that is what non catholics condemn us for saying.

It's how we use the word that differs. Some will use it to mean a womb for rent where Mary wasn't really his mother but who just incubated Jesus for nine months and who didn't take his humanity form, who was a surrogate of a already human Jesus instead.

When we say vessel, we mean tabernacle, the vessel which contains the very presence of the living God. So we mean she is the vessel of honor because of that.

 

[Benedicta00]

Whom ever said she was not.. All who do the will of the Father and are born again are part of His body. His bride. Not one higher than the other.. For the toe is just as importand as the eye.. Those of us that are born again are the body of Christ all with our own gifts and callings to bring to completion What God has set. Mary being one part of this Body and all the rest that followed Him the same.. Even those whom believed in Him before He came.. Abraham and Sarah and David and Daniel and the List goes on..

So you agree?

This verse really isn't about Mary at all? Nothing positive nor negative, only that anyone who does God's will is call friend and not salve?

So seeing how we know Mary indeed did God's will, one could not possibly believe Jesus was putting her down in any way.

I don't believe he was exulting her in his verse, but he wasn't putting her down either. Nor was He was teaching us to ignore her example either.

He was merely saying through he use of hyperbole, if you hear the word of God and keep it, you are family and not slaves to the law. And Mary was there, probably saying, preach it Son.

 

[IamAdopted]

So you agree?

This verse really isn't about Mary at all? Nothing positive nor negative, only that anyone who does God's will is call friend and not salve?

So seeing how we know Mary indeed did God's will, one could not possibly believe Jesus was putting her down in any way.

I don't believe he was exulting her in his verse, but he wasn't putting her down either. Nor was He was teaching us to ignore her example either.

He was merely saying through he use of hyperbole, if you hear the word of God and keep it, you are family and not slaves to the law. And Mary was there, probably saying, preach it Son.

Actually yes it states that this veneration to Mary is not what Jesus seeks but only those that do the will of the Father.. Therefore teaching me that I do not need to venerate Mary.

 

[Benedicta00]

Actually yes it states that this veneration to Mary is not what Jesus seeks but only those that do the will of the Father.. Therefore teaching me that I do not need to venerate Mary.

And where do you see that Jesus was rebuking veneration to His mother?

Here is what I see, Jesus was preaching to the crowd and Mary came to see him along with his family.

And someone said, "Hey J... your mom and family is here... and he said, Who is my family members? One who keeps the word of God..."

I'm sure Mary who was there to check out Jesus' sermon, and who was not there trying to get some adoration herself, was saying... "Amen Son, you preach it!"

Now where and how in the world are you getting that these ppl were trying to venerate Mary?

How in the world are you seeing that Mary went there looking for veneration?

I'm curious how you are getting that to the conclusion? You can't see how absurd that claim is?

Is it possible that Mary just wanted to see Christ preach?

And Jesu used the family analogy to make a point? That John's gospel actually supporrts? I wil no longer call you slaves, but friend?

 

[sunlover1]

And where do you see that Jesus was rebuking veneration to His mother?

No, He was saying:
Luke 11:27-28
Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God

 

[Rick Otto]

to say "Yeah, RATHER"... had He agreed with the loud woman declaring paps & womb as blessed, He'd say "Yeah, AND..."

Obviously, He corrected the woman to a degree.

 

[Rick Otto]

Matthew 12:46-50 46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
>>>Apparently she DIDN'T "just want to hear Him preach".
It pays to actualy read the scriptures you wish to conjecture about when defending your venerations.

 

[PassthePeace1]

The English does not translate the Greek in this verse. Where the word "rather" is in English, the Original Greek has "menoun" which better translates to "indeed". So the correct way to say it is:

"Yes indeed, blessed are those who hear the Word of God and keep it".

What He was trying to say is that the "womb that bore Him" was blessed because she heard the Word of God, and kept it..or obeyed it.

Bears repeating.

 

[NewToLife]

Matthew 12:46-50 46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

I'm curious, I know from an Orthodox perspective how it is that we can be His mother but what do protestants make of this passage. Brethren is easy but mother not so easy, appearing, at face value to be a very strange metaphor.

I ask because it seems many protestants see this almost as a dismissal of Mary which is not at all how Orthodox, based on our understanding of the passage, see this.

 

[IamAdopted]

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you."
48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Here is a version of the same scripture..This is the NIV Here is the NASB version of the same.

46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.

47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers! 50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

 

[Benedicta00]

No, He was saying:
Luke 11:27-28
Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God

But don't you see that you can not interpret this to mean Jesu was rebuking honor to Mary because if that is the case then the bible is full of it.

because Luke 1 contradicts this premise. Mary said God did great things to her and all generations will call her blessed. Elizabeth said "Blessed are you among women."

So you can not follow this interpretation and not be in error.

Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God

Jesus was just using the family analogy again. Blessed are us all who hear God's word and who keeps it- we are children of God, family. He was not meaning Mary isn't blessed was he? Luke said she was, so we KNOW he wasn't saying that.

so what is really going on here?

 

[Benedicta00]

Here is a version of the same scripture..This is the NIV Here is the NASB version of the same.

So he was denying having a mother at all?

Unless you think the crowd was trying to venerate Mary or that Mary showed up looking to be venerated, your interpretation just don't wash.

 

[Benedicta00]

to say "Yeah, RATHER"... had He agreed with the loud woman declaring paps & womb as blessed, He'd say "Yeah, AND..."

Obviously, He corrected the woman to a degree.

It was mild, but no less a rebuke...

In your mind maybe.

 

[sunlover1]

But don't you see that you can not interpret this to mean Jesu was rebuking honor to Mary because if that is the case then the bible is full of it.

because Luke 1 contradicts this premise. Mary said God did great things to her and all generations will call her blessed. Elizabeth said "Blessed are you among women."

So you can not follow this interpretation and not be in error.



Jesus was just using the family analogy again. Blessed are us all who hear God's word and who keeps it- we are children of God, family. He was not meaning Mary isn't blessed was he? Luke said she was, so we KNOW he wasn't saying that.

so what is really going on here?

This woman was making a big deal about Mary and He was just making it clear that they were more blessed who hear the Word of God and keep it.
He was trying to focus their attention to the more important spiritual matters.

Sounds like more of a comparison.

Look at the definition here, this will help:
Luke 11:28
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

3304 menou/nge menounge {men-oon'-geh}
Meaning: 1) nay surely, nay rather​

Here's a similar situation only a different word was translated rather :

Luke 10:20
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,
that the spirits are subject unto you;
but rather rejoice, because your names
are written in heaven.

3123 ma/llon mallon {mal'-lon}
Meaning: 1) more, to a greater degree, rather 1a) much, by far 1b) rather, sooner 1c) more willingly, more readily, sooner ​

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jesus is making it clear that being a doer of the Word is more of a blessing.

Was Mary blessed? Yes.
Is it more blessed to be one who hears the
Word of God and does it? Yes

It doesn't take away from the fact that Mary is blessed.
He was not saying Mary isn't blessed.

He was putting things into proper perspective.
Just like we often do with our children.
imo

 

[sunlover1]

to say "Yeah, RATHER"... had He agreed with the loud woman declaring paps & womb as blessed, He'd say "Yeah, AND..."

Obviously, He corrected the woman to a degree.

Yes. He is correcting the woman.

 

[littlebutterfly]

What He was trying to say is that the "womb that bore Him" was blessed because she heard the Word of God, and kept it..or obeyed it.

While it is true that Mary was blessed for being obedient to the Word of God, in the context of this scripture she isn't the focus of what Jesus is saying.

As it's been very adequately pointed out by other's: Anyone is as blessed when they walk in obedience to the Word of God, in Jesus' words.

 

[Rick Otto]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John Gill's Exposition of the Bible[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Luke 11:28[/FONT]
But he said?
Christ said "to the woman", Persic version reads, as correcting her, though not denying it, nor reproving her for it, but improving upon it: yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep
it;
intimating, that though his mother was happy in bearing and suckling such a son, yet it was a far greater happiness to hear the word of God; meaning either himself, the eternal "Logos", so as to embrace him, believe on him, and have him formed in the heart; or the Gospel preached by him, so as to understand it, receive it as the ingrafted word, and bring forth fruit, and act in obedience to it, observe it, and abide by it, and never relinquish it. This is a greater happiness than to be related to Christ in the flesh, though ever so nearly. The Ethiopic version reads, "that hear the word of God, and believe, and keep it": for faith comes by hearing, and shows itself in doing. Barely to hear the word, and even give an assent to it, will be of little avail, unless what is heard and believed is put in practice.
[/FONT]

 

[Rick Otto]

That passage is another example of Jesus taking the oppurtunity to demonstrate that the spiritual supersedes the physical, in this case even & especialy with family concerns. Had He interrupted His ministry to humanity to tend to His personal family's desires, it would've set a wrong precedent. Don't you agree?