Ancient Origins of Intelligent Design

[PaladinValer]

Spheres have no edge.

While the outline of a circle is truly continuous, if you stray from its surface, you do fall off because gravity suddenly becomes non-existent.

With a sphere, you cannot possibly stray from its surface because the inclusion of depth. It therefore doesn't have a "true edge" because gravity keeps you on the surface.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Spheres have no edge.

The edge of a sphere is called a great circle.

 

[Mallon]

A sphere has edges.

No, it doesn't. A ball is a sphere. Does a ball have edges?

A circle can refer to the outline of a sphere, e.g. a great circle.

That's not what the Bible literally says, though. Let's be consistent with our hermeneutics.

This does not say the Earth is flat.

The mountain could be on the Moon for all you know.

The passage certainly implies the earth is flat if all the kingdoms of the world could be seen from one place. That's not possible on a spherical earth. It's also not possible from the moon, even if the earth is spherical. Clearly, this passage implies a flat earth.

A sphere has ends.

But even a very tall tree cannot be seen from all sides of a sphere. It's physically impossible. It is possible only on a flat earth.

If the Bible says nothing about the shape of the planet then why are you trying to say that it does?

I'm not saying the Bible doesn't mention the shape of the earth (as I've show, it does). I'm saying the single verse you cited earlier makes no mention about the shape of the earth.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

No, it doesn't. A ball is a sphere. Does a ball have edges?

Spheres and balls have edges.

The edge of the ball is what allows you to distinguish it from other objects.

That's not what the Bible literally says, though. Let's be consistent with our hermeneutics.

The Bible doesn't literally say that the Earth is flat.

The passage certainly implies the earth is flat if all the kingdoms of the world could be seen from one place.

Do you claim there are no mountains on the Moon?

It's also not possible from the moon, even if the earth is spherical.

Are you aware that the Earth rotates around it's axis?

 

[PaladinValer]

The edge of a sphere is called a great circle.

A great circle is a large 2-d circle.

Great, when used as an adjective in this sense, doesn't mean "add a third dimension." At least not in any major dictionary that I've ever read.

 

[PaladinValer]

Spheres and balls have edges.

No, they have a surface.

The edge of a sword...the edge of a coffee table. These are areas where, if you go further, you end your contact with the sword or table.

There is no edge to a sphere. You just keep going around and around.

A sphere has a surface, not an edge.

The edge of the ball is what allows you to distinguish it from other objects.

You mean volume?

The Bible doesn't literally say that the Earth is flat.

It doesn't outright say it, but it does absolutely imply it.

Do you claim there are no mountains on the Moon?

Where does the Bible say that they were on the moon?

And it would be impossible, for Jesus is human in every way except sin. That means no air=death. There is no atmosphere on the moon.

Are you aware that the Earth rotates around it's axis?

That requires ~24 hours however, and the Bible implies that they could see everything all at once.

No proof.

 

[Mallon]

Spheres and balls have edges.

The edge of the ball is what allows you to distinguish it from other objects.

Man, you're really stretching it. Hard to believe evolutionary creationists are the ones most often accused of playing loose with scripture!

The Bible doesn't literally say that the Earth is flat.

It clearly does, given the verses I've cited. Even Job -- the book you cited earlier ("the earth hangs on nothing") -- says the earth is shaped like a piece of clay stamped under a seal!

Do you claim there are no mountains on the Moon?

You're not getting this one, are you? It doesn't matter if you stood on the tallest mountain on the moon, you still wouldn't be able to see all the kingdoms of the earth -- it is a three dimensional object. You cannot see around it.

Are you aware that the Earth rotates around it's axis?

Are you aware that in order to defend a literal interpretation of the Bible, you are adding to the Bible by placing Jesus on the moon (eisegesis) and saying that spheres have edges? It's mind-boggling.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Do you claim that when modern day people living in Antarctica who say that they live, in their words, "at the end of the world", think that the Earth is flat?

I still haven't seen one name from antiquity who thought the Earth was flat.

 

[Mallon]

Do you claim that when modern day people living in Antarctica who say that they live, in their words, "at the end of the world", think that the Earth is flat?

Again, there is more than just mention of "ends of the earth" that suggests a flat earth in the Bible. I've cited many examples. Taken together, they strongly suggest a flat earth. On the contrary, there is nothing to suggest a spherical earth.
(There's an even stronger case to be made for biblical geocentrism!)

I still haven't seen one name from antiquity who thought the Earth was flat.

There are ancient theologians mentioned in Glover's Beyond the Firmament who subscribed to a biblical flat earth but, unfortunately, I lent the book to my mom to read. I'll have to get it back from her after xmas.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Again, there is more than just mention of "ends of the earth" that suggests a flat earth in the Bible.

Like what?

Your entire argument was based upon the "ends of the Earth" which says absolutely nothing about the shape of the Earth.

've cited many examples.

And all of them are invalid.

If anything the mention of a "circle" suggests a spherical Earth.

Taken together, they strongly suggest a flat earth.

Maybe in your world.

On the contrary, there is nothing to suggest a spherical earth.

The mention of great "circles" in the Earth suggests a spherical Earth.

(There's an even stronger case to be made for biblical geocentrism!)

No there isn't.

 

[Mallon]

Like what?

Like ALL the verses I cited earlier. Please don't make me post them again. They're back a page or two.

Your entire argument was based upon the "ends of the Earth" which says absolutely nothing about the shape of the Earth.

Again, no it wasn't. Mention of the "ends of the earth" was only part of the argument. There are verses that mention the earth is shaped like a flattened piece of clay, verses that describe how the earth sits on pillars, verses that describe how the entire world can be seen from a mountain top (or tall tree), and about how it forms the floor of a tent (the firmament).

And all of them are invalid.

Your only attempt to invalidate them has been to say that spheres have edges and that Jesus walked on the moon (!!!), and you've completely neglected to address those other verses I've cited -- perhaps the strongest evidence for biblical flat-earthism of all.

If anything the mention of a "circle" suggests a spherical Earth.

Circles are flat, AoS. They're 2-dimensional objects.

The mention of great "circles" in the Earth suggests a spherical Earth.

Again, circles are not spheres. The Hebrews had a word for sphere ('duwr') and they did not use it to describe the earth. If you're going to insist that the Bible be read literally as far as its science is concerned, then if you're honest, you must admit that it describes a flat, circular earth. Just as there is no mention of evolution in the Bible (as YECs love to point out), nor is there mention of a spherical earth.

No there isn't.

Sure there is. And many traditional Christian theologians used to Bible to defend such a geocentric view (Luther, Calvin, Gillespie, Brakel, etc.).

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

verses that describe how the earth sits on pillars

In fact the Bible says the exact opposite.

"He [God]...hangeth the earth upon nothing." -- Job 26:7

The pillars are the axis of rotation.

verses that describe how the entire world can be seen from a mountain top

Have you ever been to the Moon?

(or tall tree)

Verse please.

and about how it forms the floor of a tent (the firmament).

And your point is?

You think that Jews thought the Earth is a tent?

and you've completely neglected to address those other verses I've cited

None of your verses claim the Earth is anything other than a sphere.

perhaps the strongest evidence for biblical flat-earthism of all.

If this is your strongest evidence then you have absolutely no case.

Circles are flat, AoS. They're 2-dimensional objects.

Yup. And circles compose spheres, e.g. great circles.

Again, circles are not spheres.

Circles suggest the ancients knew the Earth was a sphere which in fact they all did.

The Hebrews had a word for sphere ('duwr') and they did not use it to describe the earth.

Yes they did.

If you're going to insist that the Bible be read literally as far as its science is concerned, then if you're honest, you must admit that it describes a flat, circular earth.

The Earth appears to be flat in some places but every ancient I know of knew the Earth was a sphere. I named many ancients that believed the Earth was a sphere; you haven't named one ancient that thought the Earth is flat.

Just as there is no mention of evolution in the Bible (as YECs love to point out), nor is there mention of a spherical earth.

Although evolution is not mentioned in the Bible because evolution is a myth, nevertheless domestic selection is mentioned in the Bible.

"After the fallen angels went into the daughters of men, the sons of men taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order to provoke the Lord." -- Jasher 4:18

 

[Mallon]

AoS,

If there's one thing I've learned from YEC advocates, it's how important it is to take the Bible literally -- "at face value" -- when it comes to its description of the world. After all, if we can't trust what the Bible has to say about science, how can we trust it about the resurrection of Jesus, right? That's the refrain I've always been told as an evolutionary creationist.

So how does the Bible literally describe the universe?

As I've already pointed out, the Bible tells us that the earth is shaped like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), that it is circular (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) or mountain (Matt 4:8). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these passages imply a flat earth.
The Bible also describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars or water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5, Hab 3:11). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses imply geocentrism. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.
The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal flattened by a hammer") as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2), that is stretched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses imply a solid sky above us. And again, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

I'm left wondering why, then, modern YECs do not accept these literal descriptions "at face value" as they do the opening chapters of Genesis. Why the inconsistency? There's certainly nothing in the Bible to imply heliocentrism or a spherical earth. It seems the only way you can make your concordist interpretation work is to add to the scriptures, by placing Jesus on the moon and replacing the word "circle" with "sphere". I realize there is a single verse you like to point to that says the earth hangs on nothing, but why do you interpret this verse literally and reject the others? You're not letting science influence your interpretation of the Bible, are you? According to YECism, that's a no-no.

You can keep pretending the Bible does not say these things, if you like. It's really of no consequence to me. But if there's one thing that history has taught us, it's that reading the Bible for scientific insight is a mistake. The earth is neither flat nor unmovable, and the sky isn't a solid dome. So why YECs continue to insist that Genesis is scientifically accurate is beyond me. It certainly strikes me as inconsistent. It also strikes me as unbiblical. The Bible tells us why it was written: It was written so that we might have eternal life (2 Tim 3:15, John 5:39, 20:23, Eph 2:20, Rom 15:4), not scientific easter eggs.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

There's certainly nothing in the Bible to imply heliocentrism or a spherical earth.

I say the exact opposite. There is nothing in the Bible to imply geocentrism or a flat earth.

"In my Father's house [heaven] are many mansions [planets]: if it were not so, I would have told you." -- Jesus Christ, extraterrestrial, John 14:2

"He [God]...hangeth the earth upon nothing." -- Job 26:7

But if there's one thing that history has taught us, it's that reading the Bible for scientific insight is a mistake

In fact, the exact opposite is true.

The Bible is the most prescient scientific treatise ever written.

It told us about meteorites when scientists denied their existence.

It told us about parthenogenesis when scientists denied it's existence.

It tells about the reversal of retrograde rotation when scientists deny electromagnetic reality.

The Bible tells us that the universe is electric when scientists are still married to the mythological gravitation/Big Bang myth.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Double post.

 

[Dark_Lite]

I would like to know how you get "Earth is spherical" from "He hangs the Earth on nothing." I see no mention of spheres in that verse. Just because something is "hung on nothing" does not automatically mean it is a sphere. The only thing that can really be derived from a literal reading of that verse is that there is outer space. You can't derive that the Earth is spherical or not the center of the universe.

 

[Mallon]

I'll leave it to the readers to decide whether the two verses you cited or the two dozen verses I cited do a better job of accurately depicting the Bible's description of the universe, AoS. Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

A circle is flat, not three dimensional.

What would you call a three dimensional circle?

There are other verses in the Bible that say the world has edges, as well.

I would like to know how you get "Earth is flat" from "the world has edges." I see no mention of flat in that verse.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Again, circles are not spheres. The Hebrews had a word for sphere ('duwr') and they did not use it to describe the earth.

Duwr can mean circle as well.

Duwr can mean circle or sphere and so can khoog.

In fact, what I've read indicates that khoog was the only word for sphere at the time.

Khoog means "a circle, a sphere."

Benjamin Davidson, The Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon (London: Samuel Bagster & Sons), p. 249.
See also: Ehud Ben-Yehuda and David Weinstein, Pocket English-Hebrew, Hebrew-English Dictionary (New York: Washington Square Press, 1961), p. 252.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

I'll leave it to the readers to decide whether the two verses you cited or the two dozen verses I cited do a better job of accurately depicting the Bible's description of the universe, AoS. Have a Merry Christmas.

"The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits." -- Ecclesiastes 1:6

Merry Christmas.