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Ancient Origins of Intelligent Design

Agonaces of Susa

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"All things were mixed up together, then Mind came and arranged them all in distinct order." -- Anaxagoras, philosopher, 5th century B.C.

"Then I heard someone who had a book of Anaxagoras, as he said, out of which he read that mind was the disposer and cause of all, and I was quite delighted at the notion of this, which appeared admirable, and I said to myself; If mind is the disposer, mind will dispose all for the best, and put each particular in the best place ...." -- Socrates, philosopher, Phaedo, 360 B.C.

"Some people even question whether they [chance and spontaneity] are real or not. They say that nothing happens by chance, but that everything which we ascribe to chance or spontaneity has some definite cause ...." --Aristotle, Physics, Book II, 350 B.C.

"... if chance were real, it would seem strange indeed, and the question might be raised, why on earth none of the wise men of old in speaking of the causes of generation and decay took account of chance; whence it would seem that they too did not believe that anything is by chance." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book II, 350 B.C.

"Certainly the early physicists found no place for chance among the causes which they recognized...." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book II, 350 B.C.

"There are some too who ascribe this heavenly sphere and all the worlds to spontaneity. They say that the vortex arose spontaneously, i.e. the motion that separated and arranged in its present order all that exists. This statement might well cause surprise. For they are asserting that chance is not responsible for the existence or generation of animals and plants, nature or mind or something of the kind being the cause of them (for it is not any chance thing that comes from a given seed but an olive from one kind and a man from another); and yet at the same time they assert that the heavenly sphere and the divinest of visible things arose spontaneously, having no such cause as is assigned to animals and plants. Yet if this is so, it is a fact which deserves to be dwelt upon, and something might well have been said about it. For besides the other absurdities of the statement, it is the more absurd that people should make it when they see nothing coming to be spontaneously in the heavens ...." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book II, 350 B.C.

"Spontaneity and chance, therefore, are posterior to intelligence and nature. Hence, however true it may be that the heavens are due to spontaneity, it will still be true that intelligence and nature will be prior causes of this All and of many things in it besides." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book II, 350 B.C.

"... Anaxagoras, who says that all things were together and at rest for an infinite period of time, and that then Mind introduced motion and separated them...." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book VIII, 350 B.C.

"... nor again could it be right to entrust so great a matter [nature] to spontaneity and chance. When one man said, then, that reason was present -- as in animals, so throughout nature -- as the cause of order and of all arrangement, he seemed like a sober man in contrast with the random talk of his predecessors. We know that Anaxagoras certainly adopted these views, but Hermotimus of Clazomenae is credited with expressing them earlier." -- Aristotle, Metaphysics, Book I, 350 B.C.

"Yet these people doubt whether the universe, from whence all things arise and are made, is not the effect of chance, or some necessity, rather than the work of reason and a divine mind. According to them, Archimedes shows more knowledge in representing the motions of the celestial globe than nature does in causing them, though the copy is so infinitely beneath the original." -- Marcus T. Cicero, philosopher, The Nature of the Gods, 1st century B.C.

"He [Anaxagoras] said that the beginning of the universe was mind and matter, mind being the creator and matter that which came into being. For that when all things were together, mind came and arranged them." -- Hippolytus, priest, 2nd century
 

Agonaces of Susa

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What's your definition of "Intelligent Design", AoS?
"Intelligent design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as a result of intelligence. ... Intelligent design is a minimal commitment scientifically to the possibility of detecting intelligent causation." -- Paul A. Nelson, philosopher, 2008
 
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Mallon

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"Intelligent design is the study of patterns in nature that are best explained as a result of intelligence. ... Intelligent design is a minimal commitment scientifically to the possibility of detecting intelligent causation." -- Paul A. Nelson, philosopher, 2008
So do you understand it to be the study of mechanisms or of agency? Do you see evolution and intelligent design as being mutually exclusive?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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So do you understand it to be the study of mechanisms or of agency?
Both.

Darwinism says the agency is chance.

Intelligent design says that the agency is intelligence.

"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." -- Richard Dawkins, atheist preacher, 1986

"Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved." -- Francis Crick, molecular biologist, 1990

Do you see evolution and intelligent design as being mutually exclusive?
Given the fact that Theistic Evolutionists exist they are not mutually exclusive.

"...there is a God as a designer, who happens to be using the evolutionary process to achieve larger goals — which are, as far as we human beings can see, self-consciousness and conscience." -- Owen Gingrich, astronomer/historian, September 2006

Perhaps they are in this way though: chance and design are not the same thing.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Mallon

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Both.

Darwinism says the agency is chance.

Intelligent design says that the agency is intelligence.
Actually, evolutionary theory (or all of science, for that matter) does not attribute agency to anything. Science is the search for natural mechanisms, not agency.
(I should also point out that in his Origin of Species, Darwin attributed the agency of evolution to God, not chance.)

"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." -- Richard Dawkins, atheist preacher, 1986

"Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved." -- Francis Crick, molecular biologist, 1990
Dawkins and Crick are mistaken is they think that evolution (the search for natural mechanisms leading to biodiversity) somehow excludes God. I wouldn't take much heed of their theological ramblings.

Glad to see you believe evolution and intelligent design are not mutually exclusive. We agree on that.
 
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Bushido216

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There are some who believe that.


My point is that intelligent design has ancient origins.

I see that, in most of your posts, you present a huge list of quotations and then make some point, such as the one in this thread.

The thing of it is that, by and large, your points aren't really worthy of a new topic. Pointing out that intelligent design has ancient origins is interesting, but fundamentally unimportant. Flat Earth theorists have ancient origins, but that hardly makes it true. Most of the Western world attributed thunder and lightning to some god or other.

So, why bother posting this? All you've done is show that some really old people had a belief, you haven't made any headway in showing why we should care.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Pointing out that intelligent design has ancient origins is interesting, but fundamentally unimportant.
If it's fundamentally unimportant then why are you posting in this thread?

Flat Earth theorists have ancient origins, but that hardly makes it true.
You are wrong. The Flat Earth hypothesis has modern origins like Darwinsim. The ancients believed in a spherical Earth.

Most of the Western world attributed thunder and lightning to some god or other.
That's because they understood the Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology.

So, why bother posting this? All you've done is show that some really old people had a belief, you haven't made any headway in showing why we should care.
If you don't care then why are you posting in this thread?
 
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PaladinValer

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You are wrong. The Flat Earth hypothesis has modern origins like Darwinsim. The ancients believed in a spherical Earth.

This is wrong. While it is true that the intellectual elite in some civilizations (classically the Greeks) knew the truth, the fact of the matter is that the ancients were, while mathematically-included (often to astounding measures), they were largely ignorant of the true dimensions of the world of astronomy.
 
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Bushido216

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If it's fundamentally unimportant then why are you posting in this thread?


You are wrong. The Flat Earth hypothesis has modern origins like Darwinsim. The ancients believed in a spherical Earth.


That's because they understood the Electric Universe and Plasma Cosmology.


If you don't care then why are you posting in this thread?

You didn't answer my criticism.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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This is wrong. While it is true that the intellectual elite in some civilizations (classically the Greeks) knew the truth, the fact of the matter is that the ancients were, while mathematically-included (often to astounding measures), they were largely ignorant of the true dimensions of the world of astronomy.
Let's see: Pythagoras knew the Earth was a sphere, Democritus knew the Earth was a sphere, Aristotle knew the Earth was a sphere, Eratosthenes knew the Earth was a sphere, Poseidonius knew the Earth was a sphere, Strabo knew the Earth was a sphere, and Ptolemy knew the Earth was a sphere.

I can't name one ancient who didn't think the Earth was a sphere.

"There are some too who ascribe this heavenly sphere and all the worlds to spontaneity. They say that the vortex arose spontaneously, i.e. the motion that separated and arranged in its present order all that exists. This statement might well cause surprise. For they are asserting that chance is not responsible for the existence or generation of animals and plants, nature or mind or something of the kind being the cause of them (for it is not any chance thing that comes from a given seed but an olive from one kind and a man from another); and yet at the same time they assert that the heavenly sphere and the divinest of visible things arose spontaneously, having no such cause as is assigned to animals and plants. Yet if this is so, it is a fact which deserves to be dwelt upon, and something might well have been said about it. For besides the other absurdities of the statement, it is the more absurd that people should make it when they see nothing coming to be spontaneously in the heavens ...." -- Aristotle, Physics, Book II, 350 B.C.

"On the other hand, he [Poseidonius] correctly sets down in his work [Histories] the fact that the earth sometimes rises and undergoes settling processes, and undergoes changes that result from earthquakes and the other similar agencies, all of which I too have enumerated above. And on this point he does well to cite the statement of Plato that it is possible that the story about the island of Atlantis is not a fiction. Concerning Atlantis Plato relates that Solon, after having made inquiry of the Egyptian priests, reported that Atlantis did once exist, but disappeared — an island no smaller in size than a continent [Antarctica]; and Poseidonius thinks that it is better to put the matter in that way than to say of Atlantis: 'Its inventor caused it to disappear, just as did the Poet the wall of the Achaeans.' And Poseidonius also conjectures that migration of the Cimbrians and their kinsfolk from their native country occurred as the result of an inundation of the sea that came on all of a sudden. And he suspects that the length of the inhabited world, being about seventy thousand stadia, is half of the entire circle on which it has been taken, so that, says he, if you sail from the west in a straight course you will reach India within the seventy thousand stadia. " -- Strabo, geographer, 7

"He [Democritus] said that the ordered worlds are boundless and differ in size, and that in some there is neither sun nor moon, but that in others, both are greater than with us, and yet with others more in number. And that the intervals between the ordered worlds are unequal, here more and there less, and that some increase, others flourish and others decay, and here they come into being and there they are eclipsed. But that they are destroyed by colliding with one another. And that some ordered worlds are bare of animals and plants and all water." -- Hippolytus, priest, 2nd century

"He himself [Pythagoras] could hear the harmony of the Universe, and understood the universal music of the spheres, and of the stars which move in concert with them, and which we cannot hear because of the limitations of our weak nature. This is testified to by ... Empedocles." -- Porphyry, philosopher, 3rd century
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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The authors of scripture didn't. ;)
Verse please; citation needed.

"He [God]...hangeth the earth upon nothing." -- Job 26:7

387827~Man-s-hand-holding-string-with-globe-attached-Posters.jpg
 
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Dark_Lite

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Let's see: Pythagoras knew the Earth was a sphere, Democritus knew the Earth was a sphere, Aristotle knew the Earth was a sphere, Eratosthenes knew the Earth was a sphere, Poseidonius knew the Earth was a sphere, Strabo knew the Earth was a sphere, and Ptolemy knew the Earth was a sphere.

I can't name one ancient who didn't think the Earth was a sphere.
When you cite four Greek philosophers, it is perfectly in line with:
This is wrong. While it is true that the intellectual elite in some civilizations (classically the Greeks) knew the truth, the fact of the matter is that the ancients were, while mathematically-included (often to astounding measures), they were largely ignorant of the true dimensions of the world of astronomy.

Four Greek philosophers are not representative of the whole of the ancient populace.

As for the Bible saying the Earth is flat, Isaiah 40:22. A circle is flat, not three dimensional. There are other verses in the Bible that say the world has edges, as well.
 
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Mallon

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Verse please; citation needed.
There are many:


  • [FONT=&quot]Job 38:13-14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Isaiah 40:22[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Matthew 4:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Daniel 4:10-11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Psalm 19:4[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Their voice [a] goes out into all the earth, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] their words to the ends of the world. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Psalm 104:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He wraps himself in light as with a garment; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] he stretches out the heavens like a tent[/FONT]

"He [God]...hangeth the earth upon nothing." -- Job 26:7
Are you using this to demonstrate the sphericity of the earth? Because it says nothing about the shape of the planet.
(Incidentally, the Bible says elsewhere [in Job, even] that the earth sits on a foundation of pillars.)
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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When you cite four Greek philosophers, it is perfectly in line with:
Either it is wrong or it is right.

Are you saying it's wrong or it's right?

Four Greek philosophers are not representative of the whole of the ancient populace.
That's why I named more than 4.

As for the Bible saying the Earth is flat, Isaiah 40:22. A circle is flat, not three dimensional.
FYI a circle can refer to the outline of a sphere, e.g. a great circle.

There are other verses in the Bible that say the world has edges, as well.
A sphere has edges.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment.
A sphere has edges.

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
A circle can refer to the outline of a sphere, e.g. a great circle.

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
This does not say the Earth is flat.

The mountain could be on the Moon for all you know.

These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
A sphere has ends.

it says nothing about the shape of the planet.
If the Bible says nothing about the shape of the planet then why are you trying to say that it does?
 
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