Ancestral Sin ~vs~ Original Sin

[St_Worm2]

Hello @ArmyMatt, @zippy2006, et al, I'm waiting to hear from a couple of people concerning the Reformed POV on this, and hoping that they can answer my central question, "if the difference is the guilt, what difference does the guilt make?", from that perspective.

I would still like to hear how the EOC and RCC answer the question, but just getting a more thorough understanding about those two beliefs (where they are the same and how they differ from one another, officially) would be enough.

I didn't intend to leave the thread for this long, and I wanted to make sure that you all knew that (and that I am hoping to return with more information ASAP).

Thank you all for taking your time to help me research this

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - Original Guilt seems to be taught in the following passage, at least in part (see the portions in bold), but I don't believe the RCC or the Reformers teach that anyone will actually be judged and condemned by God on that basis (and neither does the Bible, except in the passage below). Earlier in Romans the Apostle told us plainly that those outside of Christ will be judged and condemned by God on the basis of what they know and understand of the Law (the Law of Moses, or just the law that God wrote on their hearts from birth if they have access to no other law), as well what they did with that knowledge and understanding, of course .. Romans 2:12-16.

Thus my (principal) question.

Romans 5​

15 The free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.​

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.​

.

 

[ArmyMatt]

if the difference is the guilt, what difference does the guilt make?",

the difference is you cannot be guilty of a sin you didn’t commit.

 

[St_Worm2]

the difference is you cannot be guilty of a sin you didn’t commit.

Hello again ArmyMatt, that's not a direct answer to my question, but that is what Ancestral Sin teaches, so it will do

I can understand why the West interprets the passage below as they do (as I'm sure you can, as well), but how does the East view it (because it's hard to read that passage and come to the conclusion that there isn't something more than decay, death and a corrupt/fallen nature that is passed along to each of us from our first parents).

Romans 5​

15 The free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.​

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.​

My final thought (for today anyway ) is this, assuming that the teaching of Ancestral Sin is true, how is it just for God to punish the lot of us for something that only one of us is guilty of doing?

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David
.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hello again ArmyMatt, that's not a direct answer to my question, but that is what Ancestral Sin teaches, so it will do

I can understand why the West interprets the passage below as they do (as I'm sure you can, as well), but how does the East view it (because it's hard to read that passage and come to the conclusion that there isn't something more than decay, death and a corrupt/fallen nature that is passed along to each of us from our first parents).

Romans 5​

15 The free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.​

16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.​

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.​

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.​

My final thought (for today anyway ) is this, assuming that the teaching of Ancestral Sin is true, how is it just for God to punish the lot of us for something that only one of us is guilty of doing?

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David
.

I would ask you is condemnation necessarily punishment?

 

[Lukaris]

Re Romans 5:19, the Orthodox Study Bible notes, “ refers to man’s subjection to mortality and becoming prone to sin. It does not mean that man inherits the guilt of Adam’s sin, nor does it mean that our sinning is completely inevitable. However, the first thing damaged in Adam’s nature was his will, and in our corrupted state, this weakened will is prone to falling into sin.”

 

[St_Worm2]

I would ask you is condemnation necessarily punishment?

I will have to consider that (I believe the West teaches that it is).

"Death" seems to be a punishment by God for our first parents' sin .. Romans 5:12-14, but I suppose it could also be considered a natural consequence instead (and it was/is most definitely a mercy towards us in either case).

Thanks Army Matt, you've given me even more to think about I'll be back (Dv).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

Re Romans 5:19, the Orthodox Study Bible notes, “ refers to man’s subjection to mortality and becoming prone to sin. It does not mean that man inherits the guilt of Adam’s sin, nor does it mean that our sinning is completely inevitable. However, the first thing damaged in Adam’s nature was his will, and in our corrupted state, this weakened will is prone to falling into sin.”

Thank you Lukaris, I'll consider what they have to say along with the rest of the information that I am gathering!

I noticed that Logos Bible Software has the Orthodox Study Bible notes available now, but I'm hoping to catch them on sale. I put them in my cart to remind myself to watch (so thank you for reminding me about OSB too ).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[ArmyMatt]

"Death" seems to be a punishment by God for our first parents' sin .. Romans 5:12-14, but I suppose it could also be considered a natural consequence instead (and it was/is most definitely a mercy towards us in either case).

what if it’s a punishment that’s self inflicted due to unrepentance which God allows?

 

[zippy2006]

yep, same here when I come across his writings again.

A few months ago I ran across some passages in Augustine which verified that you are correct. I don't know exactly where they are right now, but I could find them again if I tried.

Of course Augustine may have contradicted himself on this issue in various ways. I wouldn't be able to speak to that in any depth.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Of course Augustine may have contradicted himself on this issue in various ways. I wouldn't be able to speak to that in any depth.

he wrote a lot of retractions, which can look like contradictions in his stuff because he realized some of his errors.