Anathema

[Caedmon]

.

 

[Monica02]

Where did you get these quotes?

 

[LondonsBurning]

well ultimately the only person who can condemn ANYONE to hell is the father.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Caedmon . . . . the words were used to get across the seriousness of anethema . . of what it would mean if the person did not repent . . .

If a person separates themselves from God and the Church, do they have hope of eternal life?

What you have are words lifted out of their context . . . the rest of the context is that the Church offers reconcilliation and resotraiton, and the lifting of the anethema . .. The words that are spoken are what the Church judges will be the fate of someone who dies unrepentant . . . .

Notice that the word used is "judge" . . not "condemn" . . . . . "we judge them condemned" . . not "we condemn . . . "

It is a matter of semmantics, and how these words appear to us today . ..

There is actually no real contradiction between these wods and what the Catholic Church teaches . . these words have to be understood in the full context of Catholic teaching. They are much more difficult to understand when they have been lifted out of their proper context and then interpreted in isolation . ..




Peace in Him!

 

[Caedmon]

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well here's the bottom line. Noone knows the eternal destiny of someone on Earth, and to say with absolute certainty that someone is going to hell is invalid.

The Church is not saying with absolute certainty that anyone is going to hell with those words.


Peace in Him!

 

[Caedmon]

.

 

[PolskiKrol]

If you read the whole truth it would make more sense.

We exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church, and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church.

It basically says that this person is in a state of mortal sin, and must repent and do penance, otherwise he will go to hell. This is just a ceremony; We already know that if your in a state of mortal sin your chances at heaven arent that great without reconciliation. It brings about no spiritual changes, it merely states the truth and condition of the soul.

 

[thereselittleflower]

"may he be damned at the coming of the Lord"

You still don't think so? I think that those words are particularly vengeful. And what would these words do to someone who was pronounced anathema today? They would probably wear their anathema as a banner and oppose the Church all the more fervently.

Caedmon . .. Can I ask why you keep changing the meaning of the words used in your quote?

"may be damned at the coming of the Lord" some how means someone will be damned with absolute certainty ??


Yes, the language is strong . . but it is not saying what you are trying to make it say . . . .


"may" does not mean "will" let alone "will with absolute certainty" . . . .


You are simply chainging the meaning of the words . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

If you read the whole truth it would make more sense.

We exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church, and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church.


​

It basically says that this person is in a state of mortal sin, and must repent and do penance, otherwise he will go to hell. This is just a ceremony; We already know that if your in a state of mortal sin your chances at heaven arent that great without reconciliation. It brings about no spiritual changes, it merely states the truth and condition of the soul.

That is exactly right . . . . which is why I said what I did about context Caedmon. What you left out speaks volumes.


Everything said about anethema is predicated on the possibility that the preson will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church.


Peace in Him!

 

[Caedmon]

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well first of all, you misquoted. Secondly, I take "may he be" to be the equivalent of "let it be," "fiat," "amen," and not "he might be," and most people on the street would say the same. If I told someone, "May you suffer to the fullest extent," that would be interpreted as a very callous and vengeful statement.

How did I misquote?



Your post had this in quotes

"may he be damned at the coming of the Lord"


​

I responded to your quote . . .


And the issue is not how you or I take words someone else has used to mean . ..

what is essential is understanding what THEY mean by the words THEY use . . not how we wish to force our own interpretation onto those words . .


They are strong . . they may seem vengful, but unless you understand their purpose rightly, you will simply have a wrong understanding that is leading you to wrong conclusions .. ..

Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions . . .


Your conclusions are wrong because your assumption about what these words mean are wrong . . .

It is also a dangerous error to take words written in another era and give them the interpretation you would give them if spoken today for the first time . .

That is in part how protestantims has come to so many different conclusions about scritpural passages, especiallythe fundamentalist groups . . .


You cannot divorce the words form their original intent, the time and culture in which they were originally spoken, and claim you understand them accurately, and have your claim be accurate in and of itself!

It is not possible . . .



Peace in Him!

 

[Metanoia02]

Caedmon,,

Understand that the Church is operating on the instructions of St Paul on how to handle a reprobate sinner who is part of the Church. The words may sound harsh, but Paul did not pull any punches when he told the Corinthians "you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh".

Like it or not this was the way it was 2000 years ago. Why should it be different now?

 

[Rising_Suns]

Well here's the bottom line. Noone knows the eternal destiny of someone on Earth, and to say with absolute certainty that someone is going to hell is invalid.

Hi Caedmon, peace be with you,
The Church is merely re-iterating what Jesus Christ already taught us. She does not condemn any one particular person to hell, but generally speaking, she can say with absolute certainty that rejection of God is an embrace of eternal damnation, which is essentially what she is saying in the references you quoted.

-Davide

 

[Rising_Suns]

If I told someone, "May you suffer to the fullest extent," that would be interpreted as a very callous and vengeful statement

Caedmon,

You seem to be interpretting "May it be" to mean "I wish it upon you". Again, the Church does not condemn or wish people to hell; she desires all souls to be saved, but she can rightly say with confidence the words of Jesus Christ and the Apostles, because she is the bride of Christ.

Also keep in mind that God is not merely a God of mercy, but a God of justice. Even the New Testement speaks of God's wrath and vengeance (many people tend to ignore this side of the gospel);

"Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, " VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. " [Rom 12:29]


"So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." [Rev 3:16]

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." [Matt 10:28].
.

​

 

[Spence06]

Hey, I just want to point out that reason of "Anathema" comes straight from the bible and this idea was around even with the Apostles and their own proclamations of anathema. In Galatians 1:8-9 you will read;

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

Accursed being translated in greek is anathema.

So the idea that the Church has such authority to declare Anathema against those that preach other then what has been founded is very clear. In Church Theology we are handed perfectly the deposit of Faith which is Tradition and the Bible from the Apostles. So if one goes against founded dogma of the Church, in our theology would fall under Anathema.

So its not the Church being mean, or sounding harsh, but still carrying on the Apostles orginal mission.

God bless!

 

[Adammi]

I think that it is all just very fancy ceremonial word usage (and there is nothing wrong with very fancy ceremonial word usage) to simply say that "Unless you repent you will perish".

~Adam

 

[FullyMT]

Caedmon, it's not the the Church is actually sentencing the person to Hell. They are telling the person, in essense, that if they continue on the way they are going and never repent, they will end up in hell. The Church cannot say that they will go to Hell with certainty before or after the persons death because we do not know if they will be/were repentant at the moment of their death.

 

[geocajun]

Caedmon, the purpose of the Magisterium is to ensure that we have the oppurtunity to know the truth, and therefore be saved. In order to accomplish this objective, whatever is untrue must be condemned, and unwaiveringly.
The Church says "blah is true" and "bleh is untrue" those who subscribe to "bleh" are following a lie, and must repent, turn away from the lie, and return to the Church.
The language is strong, and it needs to be.
These sort of statements aren't for laymen so much as they are for those in authority who teach their followers heresy. Though it is true that the laymen who knowingly follow their teachers into heresy are guilty for it - if they knew better (or perhaps should know better)

There is an old saying "If you wish to sail smoothly on the barque of Peter, its best to stay out of the engine room."

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think that it is all just very fancy ceremonial word usage (and there is nothing wrong with very fancy ceremonial word usage) to simply say that "Unless you repent you will perish".

~Adam

Adam . . that's it exactly!


Peace in Him!