An Open Question

[Dave Ellis]

Its sweet oblivion, the absolute cessation of the ego. The end of all earthly concerns and worries. It's analogous to the buddhist nirvana.

Thats the whole point of purgatory, you know. To strip away earthly concerns, to demolish one's ego. But it takes a long time and is very uncomfortable. The medievals saw as pretty much temporary hell until you became as a saint. But atheists get it without any effort or discomfort.

No, not really.... It's simple non-existence. I'll be in the exact state after I die, as I was before I was born. Making it any more complicated than that statement is pretty well irrelevant.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

... this is nonsense. You are telling them the score, and they are allowed the same luxury that you have, to either accept or reject it.

Ok, so, Imagine you have never heard of... hmm... lets say Politics. I am left wing, so I come over to you, and tell you all the wonderful things of the left wing of politics, what is stood for, and what is argued for. I tell you nothing of the existence of any other political parties. This seems like a balanced and reasonable decision to you?

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

I see. So your quarrel with missionaries is they don't devote more time to what they consider to be falsehoods?

I would expect a person traveling across the world to spend their time telling me what they think is the truth, not what they think is false. I'd hardly expect a marxist to come to me and spend his time justifying the feudal system of governance.

 

[Elioenai26]

I see. So your quarrel with missionaries is they don't devote more time to what they consider to be falsehoods?

I would expect a person traveling across the world to spend their time telling me what they think is the truth, not what they think is false. I'd hardly expect a marxist to come to me and spend his time justifying the feudal system of governance.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I see. So your quarrel with missionaries is they don't devote more time to what they consider to be falsehoods?

I would expect a person traveling across the world to spend their time telling me what they think is the truth, not what they think is false. I'd hardly expect a marxist to come to me and spend his time justifying the feudal system of governance.

I would expect a person travelling across the world preaching "truth" to be able to back up his assertions with hard facts and evidence. Otherwise they're no better than your average snake oil salesman.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

I see. So your quarrel with missionaries is they don't devote more time to what they consider to be falsehoods?

I would expect a person traveling across the world to spend their time telling me what they think is the truth, not what they think is false. I'd hardly expect a marxist to come to me and spend his time justifying the feudal system of governance.

No, my quarrel is that they do it in the first place. I do not think anyone should attempt to convert. If people like a religion, they should make their own mind up, not have others filling their heads with propaganda. Hitler did it, lots of religions do it, in fact that was one of the reasons i left my faith (note the use of "one of").

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

We are discussing evangelization of peoples outside of the west, who have never heard of the gospel. How are they supposed to make their own mind up about the gospel, when they haven't even heard of it?

I see. You left your faith because of catechesis? Would you have prefered they left you in error?

 

[Dave Ellis]

We are discussing evangelization of peoples outside of the west, who have never heard of the gospel. How are they supposed to make their own mind up about the gospel, when they haven't even heard of it?

Through solid evidence and proof it's true. Not propaganda and threats of violence.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

We are discussing evangelization of peoples outside of the west, who have never heard of the gospel. How are they supposed to make their own mind up about the gospel, when they haven't even heard of it?

I see. You left your faith because of catechesis? Would you have prefered they left you in error?

I even doubled the reference to one reason. There are a multitude of others, but nope, even with a double reinforcement you still point it out.

 

[dlamberth]

The only thing one can be assured of its existence is ideas. As stated I do not believe this, but the only logically proved and undeniable facet of existence is that of ideas, as you might not exist to think that you exist, but ideas must exist that believe they you exist.

Once again, I believe more exists, but it cannot be logically proved.

Once the human component is removed, even ideas no longer exist.

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[Redac]

We are discussing evangelization of peoples outside of the west, who have never heard of the gospel. How are they supposed to make their own mind up about the gospel, when they haven't even heard of it?

I see. You left your faith because of catechesis? Would you have prefered they left you in error?

What do you believe happens if a people never hears the gospel in their entire life?

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

The Church does not think it is impossible for someone who has invicable ignorance to be yet still saved by redemptive act of Christ.


This was brought up recently in Vatican II. As usual, the Church position was well thought out, but people instantly starting reading into that the Church no longer held onto extra ecclesiam nula salus. This is not the case; there is still no salvation outside the Church.

The Churchs position i would summarize as it may be possible, but it would also be under extraordinary circumstances.


Also of note, invicible ignorance is a concept best applied to characers like Li Po the righteous 6th century AD chinese peasant, not an obdurate and intranisgent westerner.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The Church does not think it is impossible for someone who has invicable ignorance to be yet still saved by redemptive act of Christ.


This was brought up recently in Vatican II. As usual, the Church position was well thought out, but people instantly starting reading into that the Church no longer held onto extra ecclesiam nula salus. This is not the case; there is still no salvation outside the Church.

The Churchs position i would summarize as it may be possible, but it would also be under extraordinary circumstances.


Also of note, invicible ignorance is a concept best applied to characers like Li Po the righteous 6th century AD chinese peasant, not an obdurate and intranisgent westerner.

Well, I think that at least blows the argument that your God is self-evident out of the water then.

If he is omnipresent and self-evident, there'd be no reason for anyone to not know about him.

And if we're all God's Children, why didn't he reveal himself to everyone?

The contradictions are astounding.

 

[dlamberth]

I would expect a person travelling across the world preaching "truth" to be able to back up his assertions with hard facts and evidence. Otherwise they're no better than your average snake oil salesman.

The evidence I'd be looking for are that persons heart centered Love and Compassion for other human beings. The hard facts I'd be looking for would be the fruits we see that come from being that kind of person.

.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The evidence I'd be looking for are that persons heart centered Love and Compassion for other human beings. The hard facts I'd be looking for would be the fruits we see that come from being that kind of person.

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People can still be loving and compassionate for other people, while still being wrong about things.

The fact people have religion is irrelevant to whether they are good. This can be demonstrated by the fact that there are good people in every religion, and good people with no religion at all.

Just because those people are good, does not mean their religious beliefs are true. They need to demonstrate that those beliefs are true.

 

[dlamberth]

The fact people have religion is irrelevant to whether they are good. This can be demonstrated by the fact that there are good people in every religion, and good people with no religion at all.

Which just goes to show that there is more than one way to God.

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[Dave Ellis]

Which just goes to show that there is more than one way to God.

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Uh.... not believing in God is a way to God?

Please explain?

 

[dlamberth]

Uh.... not believing in God is a way to God?

If one finds their way to becoming a more human, Human Being through Love, Compassion and Service...Then Yes!

.

 

[trientje]

I don't have to cite evidence because you are making the claim that Genesis is more than a Bronze Age story. The evidence for a high percentage of species that have existed being already extinct during different periods is plentiful however so clearly not everything existed in the beginning.



Lets start with a trivial one... Did Jesus tell his disciples everything?

John 15:15
For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. John 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Actually I think the verse is John 16:12

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

If one finds their way to becoming a more human, Human Being through Love, Compassion and Service...Then Yes!

.

So people who don't believe in god, but are nice to other people, believe in god?