• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

An open debate to Atheists on a creator.

Status
Not open for further replies.

FormerAtheist

Active Member
Apr 9, 2018
374
108
35
asheville
✟27,476.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No. Gen2 remembered the question. You didn't. The question was not "Can you name one", the question, phrased as a challenge, was "Go ahead. Name three, with citations to the papers wherein this serious problem is revealed. Heck, just name one, with an appropriate citation."

.
Ok so you wanted references so I will begin data dumping but Um I must apolizisee as many of these notes are personal from interactions or from books As to links I read actual peer reviewed papers and books so It is more clumsy for me but this is not a problem.

If you think I am lieing you will find out different very quickly. I have nothing tor no reason for this. So instead here are some notes:

“The abrupt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations has been urged by several paleontologists—for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and Sedgwick—as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection

Most genes—sections of DNA that code for a specific protein—consist of at least one thousand nucleotide bases. That corresponds to 41000—an unimaginably large number—possible base sequences of that length.

in 1993, radiometric dating of zircon crystals from formations just above and below Cambrian strata in Siberia allowed for a precise redating of Cambrian strata. Radiometric analyses of these crystals fixed the start of the Cambrian period at 544 million years ago,58 and the beginning of the Cambrian explosion itself to about 530 million years ago (see Fig. 3.8). These studies also suggested that the explosion of the novel Cambrian animal forms occurred within a window of geologic time much shorter than previously believed, lasting no more than 10 million years, and the main “period of exponential increase of diversification” lasting only 5 to 6 million years.59

Robert Sauer, a molecular biologist at MIT, performed a series of experiments that first attempted to measure the rarity of proteins within amino-acid sequence space.
Robert Sauer used these techniques to make site-directed changes to DNA sequences of specific genes of known function and then to insert those variants into bacterial cells. He could then evaluate the effect of various targeted alterations to a DNA sequence on the function of their protein products within a bacterial cell culture.
Sauer and his colleagues estimated the ratio of functional to nonfunctional amino-acid sequences at about 1 to 1063 for a short protein of 92 amino acids in length

(1) the sudden appearance of Cambrian animal forms; (2) an absence of transitional intermediate fossils connecting the Cambrian animals to simpler Precambrian forms; (3) a startling array of completely novel animal forms with novel body plans; and (4) a pattern in which radical differences in form in the fossil record arise before more minor, small-scale diversification and variations. This pattern turns on its head the Darwinian expectation of small incremental change only gradually resulting in larger and larger differences in form
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,204
10,094
✟282,028.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Ok so you wanted references so I will begin data dumping but Um I must apolizisee as many of these notes are personal from interactions or from books As to links I read actual peer reviewed papers and books so It is more clumsy for me but this is not a problem.

If you think I am lieing you will find out different very quickly. I have nothing tor no reason for this. So instead here are some notes:

“The abrupt manner in which whole groups of species suddenly appear in certain formations has been urged by several paleontologists—for instance, by Agassiz, Pictet, and Sedgwick—as a fatal objection to the belief in the transmutation of species. If numerous species, belonging to the same genera or families, have really started into life all at once, the fact would be fatal to the theory of descent with slow modification through natural selection

Most genes—sections of DNA that code for a specific protein—consist of at least one thousand nucleotide bases. That corresponds to 41000—an unimaginably large number—possible base sequences of that length.

in 1993, radiometric dating of zircon crystals from formations just above and below Cambrian strata in Siberia allowed for a precise redating of Cambrian strata. Radiometric analyses of these crystals fixed the start of the Cambrian period at 544 million years ago,58 and the beginning of the Cambrian explosion itself to about 530 million years ago (see Fig. 3.8). These studies also suggested that the explosion of the novel Cambrian animal forms occurred within a window of geologic time much shorter than previously believed, lasting no more than 10 million years, and the main “period of exponential increase of diversification” lasting only 5 to 6 million years.59

Robert Sauer, a molecular biologist at MIT, performed a series of experiments that first attempted to measure the rarity of proteins within amino-acid sequence space.
Robert Sauer used these techniques to make site-directed changes to DNA sequences of specific genes of known function and then to insert those variants into bacterial cells. He could then evaluate the effect of various targeted alterations to a DNA sequence on the function of their protein products within a bacterial cell culture.
Sauer and his colleagues estimated the ratio of functional to nonfunctional amino-acid sequences at about 1 to 1063 for a short protein of 92 amino acids in length

(1) the sudden appearance of Cambrian animal forms; (2) an absence of transitional intermediate fossils connecting the Cambrian animals to simpler Precambrian forms; (3) a startling array of completely novel animal forms with novel body plans; and (4) a pattern in which radical differences in form in the fossil record arise before more minor, small-scale diversification and variations. This pattern turns on its head the Darwinian expectation of small incremental change only gradually resulting in larger and larger differences in form
Seriously. This is not how to conduct a debate. I want you to select one or two papers that you believe give your argument the most strength. I don't want a Gish Gallop, where quantity outpaces quality. One or two papers and we can discuss this till we reach some form of agreement, then move onto the next one or two.

I am not interested in your notes. Just provide the citations for readily accessible papers. Tell me, using extracts from your notes if it helps you, what about the papers supports your argument. Be specific - point me to the relevant page/paragraph or page/table/diagram. Explain how that point supports your argument.

Anything else will be fruitless. And please, I ask again, can we cut the hip dude-talk.
 
Upvote 0

FormerAtheist

Active Member
Apr 9, 2018
374
108
35
asheville
✟27,476.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No. Gen2 remembered the question. You didn't. The question was not "Can you name one", the question, phrased as a challenge, was "Go ahead. Name three, with citations to the papers wherein this serious problem is revealed. Heck, just name one, with an appropriate citation."

Aft.

Data dump part 2:
If an average gene has about 1000 bases, then an average protein would have over 300 amino acids, each of which are called “residues” by protein chemists. And indeed proteins typically require hundreds of amino acids in order to perform their functions. This means that an average-length protein represents just one possible sequence among an astronomically large number—20300, or over 10390—of possible amino-acid sequences of that length. Putting these numbers in perspective, there are only 1065 atoms in our Milky Way galaxy and 1080 elementary particles in the known universe

Molecular biologists have estimated that a minimally complex single-celled organism would require between 318,000 and 562,000 base pairs of DNA to produce the proteins necessary to maintain life.17 More complex single cells might require upwards of a million base pairs of DNA. Yet to assemble the proteins necessary to sustain a complex arthropod such as a trilobite would need orders of magnitude more protein-coding instructions. By way of comparison, the genome size of a modern arthropod, the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster, is approximately 140 million base pairs

functional 92-amino-acid sequence there are roughly another 1063 nonfunctional sequences of the same length which is hilarious because we all know the problems hahaha. I mean after that it gets crazy. Mike did you get that ?
Unlike radiometric dating methods, molecular clocks depend on a host of contingent factors. As Valentine, Jablonski, and Erwin note, “Different genes in different clades evolve at different rates, different parts of genes evolve at different rates and, most importantly, rates within clades have changed over time.”35 So great is this variation that one paper in the journal Molecular Biology and Evolution cautions, “The rate of molecular evolution can vary considerably among different organisms, challenging the concept of the ‘molecular clock.’ ”

Germ-cell formation has indisputable evolutionary importance. To evolve, a population or a species must leave offspring; to leave offspring, species of animals must generate primordial germ cells. No PGCs, no reproduction; no reproduction, no evolution. One might expect, therefore, that if a group of animals is all derived from a common ancestor (with a particular mode of gamete production), then the mode of germ-cell formation should also be essentially the same from one animal species to the next in that group. Further, assuming the common ancestry of all animals, our expectation of homologous modes of germ-cell formation among the animals ought to be higher than for any other tissue type, cell line, or mode of development. Why? Because mutations affecting the developmental mechanisms that govern PGC formation inevitably disrupt successful reproduction.50 Again, if a species cannot reproduce, it cannot evolve.51 Thus, s

For this reason, indistinct fossils such as Vernanimalcula—even if we take them as representing a common ancestor of many bilaterians—document little of the Darwinian story of the history of animal life. Hugely significant gaps in the fossil record would still remain, because the Precambrian fossil record simply does not document the gradual emergence of the crucial distinguishing characteristics of the Cambrian animals. The important anatomical novelties that define the individual Cambrian phyla as well as their first clear representatives arise as suddenly as ever. To say that a form such as Vernanimalcula, or any of the other relatively indistinct Ediacaran forms, solves the problem of the missing Precambrian fossil record would be a bit like saying that a metal cylinder demonstrates all the steps involved in the construction of a toaster, automobile, submarine, or jet airplane simply because all these technological objects utilize “metal enclosures.” I

Even the most favorable interpretations of these trace fossils suggest that they indicate the presence of no more than two animal body plans (of largely unknown characteristics). Thus, the Ediacaran record falls far short of establishing the existence of the wide variety of transitional intermediates that a Darwinian view of life’s history requires. The Cambrian explosion attests to the first appearance of organisms representing at least twenty phyla and many more subphyla and classes, each manifesting distinctive body plans. In a best case, the Ediacaran forms represent possible ancestors for, at most, four distinct Cambrian body plans, even counting those documented only by trace fossils. This leaves the vast majority of the Cambrian phyla with no apparent ancestors in the Precambrian rocks (i.e., at least nineteen of the twenty-three phyla present in the Cambrian have no representative in Precambrian strata).33 Third, even if representatives of four animal phyla were present in the Ediacaran period, it does not follow that these forms were necessarily transitional or intermediate to the Cambrian animals. The Precambrian sponges (phylum Porifera), for example, were quite similar to their Cambrian brethren, thus demonstrating, not a gradual transformation from a simpler precursor or the presence of an ancestor common to many forms, but quite possibly only an earlier first appearance of a known Cambrian form. The same may be true of whatever kind of worm may be attested by Precambrian tracks and burrows. Moreover, even assuming, as some evolutionary biologists do,34 that later Cambrian animals had a sponge-like Precambrian ancestor, the gap in complexity as measured by the number of cell types alone, to say nothing of the specific anatomical structures and distinct modes of body plan organization that are present in later animals but not in sponges, leaves a massive discontinuity in the fossil record that requires explanation (much like the morphological gap between Spriggina and actual arthropods). AN EDIACARAN MINI-EXPLOSION The Ediacaran fossils themselves provide evidence of a puzzling leap in biological complexity, though not one nearly great enough (or of the right kind) to account for the Cambrian explosion





A survey of recent deep-divergence studies, by molecular evolutionists Dan Graur and William Martin, notes one study in which the authors claim to be 95 percent certain that their divergence date for certain animal groups falls within a 14.2-billion-year range—more than three times the age of the earth and clearly a meaningless result
Foote’s statistical analysis of this pattern, documented by an ever increasing number of paleontological investigations, demonstrates just how improbable it is that there ever existed a myriad of as yet undiscovered intermediate forms of animal life—forms that could close the morphological distance between the Cambrian phyla one tiny evolutionary step at a time. In effect, Foote’s analysis suggests that since paleontologists have reached repeatedly into the proverbial barrel, sampled it from one end to the other, and found only representatives of various radically distinct phyla but no rainbow of intermediates, we shouldn’t hold our breath expecting such intermediates to eventually emerge. He asks “whether we have a representative sample of morphological diversity and therefore can rely on patterns documented in the fossil record.” The answer, he says, is yes

In reconstructing the evolutionary history of life, most evolutionary biologists today emphasize the importance of homology. They assume that similarities in anatomy and in the sequences of information-bearing biomacromolecules such as DNA, RNA, and protein point strongly to a common ancestor.2 They also assume that the degree of difference in such cases is on average proportional to the time elapsed since the divergence from a common ancestor. The greater the difference in the common feature or molecular sequence, the farther back the ancestor from which the feature or sequence arose. Evolutionary biologists have used this approach to try to discern the evolutionary history of the Cambrian animals. If the Precambrian fossil record refuses to disclose the secrets of Precambrian evolution, so goes the thinking, perhaps the study of comparative anatomy and molecular homologies will.
 
Upvote 0

FormerAtheist

Active Member
Apr 9, 2018
374
108
35
asheville
✟27,476.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Seriously. This is not how to conduct a debate. I want you to select one or two papers that you believe give your argument the most strength. I don't want a Gish Gallop, where quantity outpaces quality. One or two papers and we can discuss this till we reach some form of agreement, then move onto the next one or two.

I am not interested in your notes. Just provide the citations for readily accessible papers. Tell me, using extracts from your notes if it helps you, what about the papers supports your argument. Be specific - point me to the relevant page/paragraph or page/table/diagram. Explain how that point supports your argument.

Anything else will be fruitless. And please, I ask again, can we cut the hip dude-talk.
Ok fine but I don't want to spend much more time on this then is needed. So If I remember you wanted one evolutionary bioloigist that does not agree and some papers. Ok lets just do that because this is too much time.

By the way it took me this long to find what you are looking for it would be these notes:

Numerous papers have noted the prevalence of contradictory trees based on evidence from molecular genetics. A 2009 paper in Trends in Ecology and Evolution notes that “evolutionary trees from different genes often have conflicting branching patterns.”13 Likewise, a 2012 paper in Biological Reviews acknowledge2s that “phylogenetic conflict is common, and frequently the norm rather than the exception.”14 Echoing these views, a January 2009 cover story and review article in New Scientist observed that today the tree-of-life project “lies in tatters, torn to pieces by an onslaught of negative evidence.” As the article explains, “Many biologists now argue that the tree concept is obsolete and needs to be discarded,” because the evidence suggests that “the evolution of animals and plants isn’t exactly tree-like.” The New Scientist article cited a study by Michael Syvanen, a biologist at the University of California at Davis, who studied the relationships among several phyla that first arose in the Cambrian.15 Syvanen’s study compared two thousand genes in six animals spanning phyla as diverse as chordates, echinoderms, arthropods, and nematodes. His analysis yielded no consistent tree-like pattern. As the New Scientist reported, “In theory, he should have been able to use the gene sequences to construct an evolutionary tree showing the relationships between the six animals. He failed. The problem was that different genes told contradictory evolutionary stories.” Syvanen himself summarized the results in the bluntest of terms: “We’ve just annihilated the tree of life. It’s not a tree anymore, it’s a different topology [pattern of history] entirely. What would Darwin have made of that?”16

13. Degnan and Rosenberg, “Gene Tree Discordance, Phylogenetic Inference and the Multispecies Coalescent,” 332. 14. Dávalos et al., “Understanding Phylogenetic Incongruence: Lessons from Phyllostomid Bats,” 993. 15. Syvanen and Ducore, “Whole Genome Comparisons Reveals a Possible Chimeric Origin for a Major Metazoan Assemblage,” 261–75. 16. Quoted in Lawton, “Why Darwin Was Wrong About the Tree of Life,”
 
Upvote 0

FormerAtheist

Active Member
Apr 9, 2018
374
108
35
asheville
✟27,476.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
False dichotomy; there is at least one other option, 'unknown'. The fact that we don't have a complete understanding of abiogenesis doesn't mean there is a designer; and if we do find a plausible natural explanation for abiogenesis, it doesn't mean it happened that way - nor does it exclude a designer.

You fallacy can be reversed: if you wish to claim a designer, the burden of proof is on you; if you can't, then life arose, and evolution proceeded, naturally - without a designer.

See how that works?

However, the natural hypothesis has a number of advantages over the designer hypothesis: it makes testable predictions, it has wider scope and explanatory power, it is more parsimonious (requiring no additional ontological entities), it is more conservative (cohering better with what we already know), and - importantly - it doesn't try to explain the unexplained with the unexplained or inexplicable (whether the designer is a natural entity or not, it requires an additional level of explanation).

So, all things being equal (i.e. if the evidence favours neither hypothesis, or both equally) the natural hypothesis is preferred over the designer hypothesis. As it happens, the evidence from abiogenesis research strongly suggests a natural origin is possible, and the evidence for evolution is overwhelming - although our explanations for the mechanisms involved are continually being refined.

The evidence for a designer? Meh...

Can I ask you a simple question? How much longer? Another 160 years?
 
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,531
Antwerp
✟158,395.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Ok very very strong argument. You are thinking on a higher level. You are correct that the miller experiment did show how we can get a macro molecule from a random process. But the problems after that are extreme and that is why Miller himself backed away from the results later on in life and why Scientists no longer look at this experiment to deeply. We can also for example put all the ingredients together in a way to get other results or molecules but to get RNA.

Well that is where this debate is heading. And that is where the fun begins.

You are still appealing to incredulity / ignorance.

Currently, we have no confirmed theory of how life came about.
We have several hypothesis, some of them quite promising. But nothing conclusive at this point.

You seem to be doing your very best to suggest that because we are somewhat ignorant about it at this time, that somehow validates the "creation" camp as being "just as valid" an opinion.

This is completely wrong.
When we don't know something, the rational stance is acknowledging we are ignorant.

It matters not what your (or anyone else's) particular religious lore has to say, when it comes to the science of it all.

Consider all the times throughout history when religions claimed to have answers to unanswered questions before science answered those questions. I dare say that just about every question the natural sciences have answered so far, were at some point attributed to some god or the other.

Tides, storms, lightning, biological reproduction, vulcano's, earth quaks, floods, tsunami's, meteorites, the moon, the sun, the seasons, the day/night cycle, desease, bio-diversity,...................

All of them were attributed to some god at some point in time, when humanity was still ignorant on the natural processes that produce all those things.

I know of NO instance where a phenomena of reality was tackled and solved by science, where the a priori "religious" attribution turned out to be correct. Not a single one.

Why would the origins of life be any different, I ask you?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,204
10,094
✟282,028.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
@FormerAtheist I really hope I am not holding a discussion with someone who is high on something, because that is how you are coming across. Your posts are rambling, ambiguous, grammatically disastrous, unfocused and a pain to read. Please try to be clear, concise and comprehensive. If your posting style accurately reflects your thinking style I am not surprised you have reached the flawed conclusions.

I shall attempt to extract something meaningful to discuss from your last post. Please do not respond to me further until I have digested and replied to that.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,204
10,094
✟282,028.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
@FormerAtheist Thank you for the first of the papers you cited. A full citation and link follow.

Degnan and Rosenberg, “Gene Tree Discordance, Phylogenetic Inference and the Multispecies Coalescent" Trends in Ecology and Evolution Vol.24 No.6 March 2009. Download here.

This is an excellent review paper: clearly written, well structured and replete with references. I especially liked the fact that it demolished your claim that scientists are questioning the foundations of evolutionary theory. This is amply demonstrated by the authors' comments in the Conclusions section. (Emphasis is mine.)
Conflicts between gene trees estimated at different loci have sometimes been seen as obstacles for inferring phylogenies. However, we suggest that gene tree conflict provides an opportunity to obtain information regarding the processes that have shaped organismal genomes. Researchers have used conflicting gene genealogies to infer ancestral population parameters such as population size and divergence times, and to examine species divergence processes. It is only recently, however, that population-genetic and phylogenetic perspectives are being integrated in the effort to improve methods for inferring species trees.

With the increasing abundance of genomic data, it is important that phylogenetic methods take into account many loci and, therefore, many gene trees. Conflicting topologies are likely to become the norm, and the amount of gene tree discordance expected by chance under a simple neutral model can now be predicted analytically or by simulation. New ways of understanding gene trees will
assist in modeling multiple sources of gene tree conflict simultaneously, or in distinguishing sources ofconflict, such as in deciding whether discordance is due to hybridization or incomplete lineage sorting, and in judging whether discordance is more frequent than expected under a null model.

Long-standing issues about inferring species trees can now be reexamined in a new light, including problems with combining data sources, effects of taxon sampling and statistical consistency of phylogenetic estimators. Opportunities also exist for modeling, such as in relaxing the assumptions of the multispecies coalescent. The outstanding questions detailed in Box 4 could provide a useful framework for future research on gene tree discordance in phylogenetics. In many cases, the answers to the questions posed in Box 4 will depend on the species under consideration.

However, as the focus of molecular phylogenetics moves from gene tree inference to multilocus inference of species trees, it will be important to determine the features of underlying biological processes, experimental designs and computational methods that give rise to the best estimates of species phylogenies.

A dumbed-down, simplified overview of this reads:"As our techniques have improved, what were seen as challenges have metamorphosed into excellent opportunities to extract more meaningful information from the data and to generate improved phylogenies. More refinements will follow."

Perhaps you will now attempt to explain why you felt this paper supported your view and acknowledge that, in this instant you were mistaken.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,082.00
Faith
Atheist
But you do know there could be some that might take issue with one of your statements?
Sure. The question is, are they justifiable objections?

quatum physics we have a clear interaction between the non-physical and the physical with duel slit experiment. So we can see that consciousness can have an effect on matter.
Firstly, no we don't; secondly, what exactly do you mean by 'consciousness can have an effect on matter'.

The best available evidence is that consciousness is a particular type of neurological process in the brain, and it's quite reasonable to suppose that such a process can cause, or influence, physical (body) activities. The double-slit experiment shows that the results you obtain depend on what you set up the experiment to detect (i.e. how it is configured), in unexpected ways.

In what way is the non-physical involved?


Further we can see that matter can effect matter with no direct link as yet we can detect with entagled objects.
That's one interpretation; there are others that explain quantum entanglement without 'spooky action at a distance' as Einstein called it.

Even crazier and this is the one that really fries my brain is the unaccountable energy and information that can instantly be transmitted across the entire universe.
Quantum entanglement only involves the 'transfer' of quantum state information (depending on the interpretation you prefer - some don't involve any transfer or communication at all); no classical information is involved, and energy is conserved. So you can't use it to send an instantaneous signal, or energy.

Unfortunately, there is no good classical analogy for entanglement (although there's a lot of examples quoted with red and white socks or balls, and knowing that if you have the white one, the other guy has the red one). It is what it is, and too involved to go into here.

So there is that.
Not so much.

But having said that I know what you are saying and I struggle because I feel much like you do about this.
And yet ... quantum spooky stuff :(
Don't you find relativistic time dilation spooky, or the fact that two observers in relative motion will measure the speed of light as c regardless of their relative velocities, or that no matter how long or how hard you accelerate, you'll never reach light speed?

It's just the way we react to things that are far outside of everyday experience.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,082.00
Faith
Atheist
Evolution is not a fact. The genetic information coming out is horrible for TOE and causing serious problems. Common ancestry itself is now in doubt.
Evolution has been observed - i.e. changes in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations have been observed many times. Those observations are the evidence of the fact of evolution.

That is not the same as saying the Theory of Evolution, that explains the fact of evolution, is itself factual. Such theories are explanations, not facts.
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,405
8,143
✟349,082.00
Faith
Atheist
Can I ask you a simple question? How much longer? Another 160 years?
For what - a full model of abiogenesis? I don't know. A lot of progress has been made in recent years, but putting it all together may be the most difficult empirical part.
 
Upvote 0

Waterwerx

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2016
660
253
40
Hazleton, PA
✟71,259.00
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Single
I have been involved with many a debate especially latley on the science of the creation of life as we know it. I hear these ideas that the science is settled ... that evolution is a fact or that there is science prooving no God and so on. This is not true.

Science is not on the side of Atheism and that is why I turned away from it. I can not do theology or bible debates as I am not a Christian buy I can do science because the science is easy. It leads ti God.

Science will never be able to prove nor disprove the existence of God. We can't even prove with 100% scientific certainty that a global flood occurred. Science is based on facts, and in my opinion, we will never have enough facts(much less agreeable facts) to arrive at an undeniable conclusion via scientific methods and such. Its all about faith.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I have been involved with many a debate especially latley on the science of the creation of life as we know it. I hear these ideas that the science is settled ... that evolution is a fact or that there is science prooving no God and so on. This is not true.

Science is not on the side of Atheism and that is why I turned away from it. I can not do theology or bible debates as I am not a Christian buy I can do science because the science is easy. It leads ti God.
Well I'm certainly glad that you have found a belief in God. But natural science is an investigation of natural phenomenon, God is self existing and self evidenced, science my well help you along the way but understanding who God is and what God is like has to come from God himself.
 
Upvote 0

Joy

John 3:16
Site Supporter
May 21, 2004
45,184
3,375
West Midlands
✟1,435,067.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
MOD HAT ON
262241_97344f3feba7d2020816cbb9e9ef87d8.jpeg

This Thread
From Physical & Life Sciences

to Creation & Evolution

as This is a More Fitting Forum
for this subject
MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A disciple who had seen miracles with his own eyes asked for evidence of the resurrection and he got it.

Right. He was standing in front of the resurrected Jesus, and he still needed more evidence.

This reinforces my stand that evangelism is a job for God Himself.
 
Upvote 0

FormerAtheist

Active Member
Apr 9, 2018
374
108
35
asheville
✟27,476.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
At least we know that it is possible for the building blocks of life to come about through a natural process. It may not have been acurate when it comes to the conditions of the earth but that is not the point.

ID people and creationists kept claiming life and its compounds are too complex to come about naturally.

We'll it turns out they were wrong.

The building blocks of life is not life ... not even close. Its like saying sugar is getting close to life. Yes sugar is very very important but it is not life. Also having a few building blocks out of dozens would be too poor a start to be considered as an explanation hence the reason scientists have backed away from the MIller experiment.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.