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An Interesting View on Paganism

brewmama

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From David Mills of Touchstone magazine:



I have never understood the appeal of nature religions, which Wicca and its cousins are supposed to be. Nature being, as Tennyson observed, "red in tooth and claw," is not the sort of thing one would want either to worship or to blend oneself with. Nature isn't butterflies and bunnies, it's birds gobbling the butterflies and hawks eating the bunnies alive.

The pagans I've read talk a lot about achieving harmony with the cycles of nature and that sort of thing, but these cycles are completely impersonal and indeed inhumane and inhuman. The Black Plague is part of the cycle of nature. Just thinking purely in terms of self-interest, I would think a religion that says a loving Person lives behind nature and will correct and heal all the wounds it gives us, is a vastly more attractive religion.

I suspect that many neo-pagans actually rely, psychologically, on the comforting sense of personal immortality that two millenia of Christianity have produced. They don't actually think they're going to go out of existence and be merged in impersonal nature. In other words, they do not pay the emotional costs of real paganism.

And for that matter, I suspect that they also rely, psychologically, on the sense of the ultimate goodness of the universe that Christianity has also produced, and the astonishingly comfortable and affluent society they live in has encouraged. The ancient pagans knew the spirit world included devils as well as gods, and the gods themselves weren't to be trusted. They were wise enough to see that what the world suggested about itself was not encouraging.

Which is why Christianity came as such a liberation, and still comes as such to people in some societies. (A man who had lived in Nepal once told me some heart-rending stories about the fear of the spirits that characterized popular Nepalese Buddhism.) But the neo-pagans, supported by the Christian sense of the world, do not see the world as the real pagan sees it, and therefore do not see the Lord as he is.
—David Mills
5:14 PM
 

Carico

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Pagans simply believe in worldly things and when they are gone, so is their happiness. their happiness is contingent upon things int he world and therefore, fleeting. Real joy, however, comes from the spitit. it is underneath happiness and despair which brings hope out of despair. Joy doesn't depend on things in the world because it comes from the spirit and therefore is everlasting.
 
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WayMan

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Who know's what Wicca is, I asked the question a few weeks back and was given no sensible reply. Only one wiccan person here could say what it was they actually believed in, and that was the "Divine" the problem was however that they were unable to explain what the divine was.
It seems to me that wicca and "neo paganism" are make it up as you go along religions with no basis in anything other than whacky dreams from clueless ex and would be hippies of flower power era.
But don't get me wrong! I think they are harmless in comparison to the extreem belief religions such as christianity and islam. I have never heard of a wiccan claiming anything like as ridiculous as what the christians would have us believe, nor have I ever heard of a wiccan torturing anyone or burning someone to death.
 
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WayMan

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Carico said:
Pagans simply believe in worldly things and when they are gone, so is their happiness. their happiness is contingent upon things int he world and therefore, fleeting. Real joy, however, comes from the spitit. it is underneath happiness and despair which brings hope out of despair. Joy doesn't depend on things in the world because it comes from the spirit and therefore is everlasting.

What!!
 
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SqueezetheShaman

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WayMan said:
Who know's what Wicca is, I asked the question a few weeks back and was given no sensible reply. Only one wiccan person here could say what it was they actually believed in, and that was the "Divine" the problem was however that they were unable to explain what the divine was.
It seems to me that wicca and "neo paganism" are make it up as you go along religions with no basis in anything other than whacky dreams from clueless ex and would be hippies of flower power era.
But don't get me wrong! I think they are harmless in comparison to the extreem belief religions such as christianity and islam. I have never heard of a wiccan claiming anything like as ridiculous as what the christians would have us believe, nor have I ever heard of a wiccan torturing anyone or burning someone to death.
wicca encompasses so much. i researched it quite a bit, and still dont' have a great grasp on it.

the fact that there isn't a great explanation to the divine shows the honesty and purity of it. i have experienced god, the divine, the force, the spirit, whatever you want to call it. i have learned that naming it and knowing where it comes from isn't what is important.
 
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SqueezetheShaman

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Carico said:
Pagans simply believe in worldly things and when they are gone, so is their happiness. their happiness is contingent upon things int he world and therefore, fleeting. Real joy, however, comes from the spitit. it is underneath happiness and despair which brings hope out of despair. Joy doesn't depend on things in the world because it comes from the spirit and therefore is everlasting.
wow. you really don't have a clue, do you. being in touch with the spirit and communicating with it on a constant basis, including it in every thing i do from making life altering decisions to decide what to cook for dinner is what my life is about. when i veer away from that is when the unhappiness sets in, the confusion. your arrogance is astounding. you may think you and your christian brethren are the only ones on the path, but you couldn't be farther from it.
 
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WayMan

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SqueezetheShaman said:
wicca encompasses so much. i researched it quite a bit, and still dont' have a great grasp on it.

the fact that there isn't a great explanation to the divine shows the honesty and purity of it. i have experienced god, the divine, the force, the spirit, whatever you want to call it. i have learned that naming it and knowing where it comes from isn't what is important.


It is important if you want people to understand what you are talking about.
I know there is an unseen force, I don't know what it is either, but it is certainly a "force", and to describe it as such is not giving it a name. I think it is a natural thing, and because of this I call it the force of nature.
 
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SqueezetheShaman

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WayMan said:
It is important if you want people to understand what you are talking about.
I know there is an unseen force, I don't know what it is either, but it is certainly a "force", and to describe it as such is not giving it a name. I think it is a natural thing, and because of this I call it the force of nature.
ah. well i don't need others to understand it :)

that leads to a great point, i think it is natural too. there is a quote i love, it was aleister crowley who said it.....we hold no truth in virgin or pigeon...our method is science our aim is religion. it think eventually we will understand what is going on, and science will figure it out.
 
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Arikay

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Anyway, getting to the OP,

"I have never understood the appeal of nature religions, which Wicca and its cousins are supposed to be. Nature being, as Tennyson observed, "red in tooth and claw," is not the sort of thing one would want either to worship or to blend oneself with. Nature isn't butterflies and bunnies, it's birds gobbling the butterflies and hawks eating the bunnies alive."

I think most people realize this and understand it. All this was an attempt to do was to demonize nature, which is odd, since according to christianity, god created it.
Nature is nature.
Nature is complex, its hard and soft, beautiful and deadly. Again, its interesting they are attempting to demonize nature, when christians often give the same description to god.


"but these cycles are completely impersonal and indeed inhumane and inhuman."

Again, demonizing something that is very similar to their own beliefs. As far as impersonal, I dont see why its important for it to be "personal" after all, we are all part of nature, how much personal do you want to get?


"The Black Plague is part of the cycle of nature."

Yeah, and so are so many other things. Of course, the devastation that the Black Plague did was because of unnatural living conditions and superstition. So it would appear that those that dont want to live with nature have some blame for what the black plague did. :)


"I would think a religion that says a loving Person lives behind nature and will correct and heal all the wounds it gives us, is a vastly more attractive religion."

Thanks, Im glad you like my religion. :D (of course, its not a person nor does it live "behind" nature, but thats beside the point).
Of course, the belief that there is someone watching over the person could just be a psychological attempt to deny the real world by creating an imaginary one where everything is happy. (I figure if he can give psych analysis later, then so can I)


"I suspect that many neo-pagans actually rely, psychologically, on the comforting sense of personal immortality that two millenia of Christianity have produced. They don't actually think they're going to go out of existence and be merged in impersonal nature. In other words, they do not pay the emotional costs of real paganism."

Wow this is a stupid paragraph. Ok so now our friend knows what a "real" pagan is and has decided that all pagans really want god "in their heart." I take it our friend here has done lots and lots of research, talking to many people, or that he is really some dark magician that can read peoples minds.

Otherwise his attempt to put words into other peoples mouths and label people "real" and "fake" pagans, is rather sad, and I would say it shows that he doesn't really know what he is talking about.


"And for that matter, I suspect that they also rely, psychologically, on the sense of the ultimate goodness of the universe that Christianity has also produced, and the astonishingly comfortable and affluent society they live in has encouraged."

Ah, another mind reading attempt I see.

You mean the society that has burned pagans?
The society that came to another country because of the abuse they recieved from a christian run government?
The society that has gone on many "witch hunts" against pagans, most recently there was the "satanic ritual abuse" panic that got many people labeled evil by their confortable christian society?
The society that often tries to label certain religious groups as "not true" americans?

Yeah I think they love that society, I mean if you were in their shoes, I bet you would too. :D


"But the neo-pagans, supported by the Christian sense of the world, do not see the world as the real pagan sees it, and therefore do not see the Lord as he is."

And another judgment that most pagans are not "real" pagans. I think this guy should actually go out and do some research and talk to some people with an open mind (open mind equal an unbiased one). But I doubt that will happen as it appears he likes to blow smoke, which unfortunatly many probably breath in for a nice contact high of moral and religious superiority. Unfortunatly its all a hallucination.

:)




brewmama said:
 
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Kira Faye

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This is crazy! One thing I lvoe about Wicca over Chrsitianity is it doesn't go around proclaiming it is the right religion and that anyone who doesn't follow it is doomed. Fair go! Wicca is a nature based religion, the good and the bad, ying and yang, the bad spirits the good spirits and the divine. As for it being impersonnal I think my guardian angel is very personnal. I love getting in otuch with nature it really brings up the love of the world..watchign the stars feeling the vibes and the pull of the tide, even to the extent of appreciating the sunburn on my sholders because I have the ability to live life like that! Wicca is about appreciating what is here on earth for you and what is in the spirit world, thanking all the creators and living in harmony with all that is our fortune to know. Stop trying to find faults in other religions and love your own religion as it is. In other words get over it!
 
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Havoc

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I'm guessing David Mills is a Christian. Typical misrepresenting of other peoples beliefs in order to make Christianity look good. The article i the OP did not represent my beliefs, nor the beliefs of any of the thousands of Pagans I have known.

But a Christian wouldn't misrepresent another religion would they? That would be false witness. :rolleyes:
 
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Annabel Lee

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Havoc said:
But a Christian wouldn't misrepresent another religion would they? That would be false witness. :rolleyes:

Silly silly Havoc. It doesn't count as a sin if the person being lied about isn't a Christian.....DUH!

Bearing false witness against the Agents of Darkness and Satan's Evil Minions is OKAY! Go on...lie, cheat, bear false against against your heathen neighbor.

At least that's what Fred Phelps said. :rolleyes:
 
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Kira Faye

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Well said Havoc, the truth is truth to us, ur truth is different. People are individual, get used to it! We willo believe what we want to believe because that is how we are made. Christians shoudl get this because their god said everyone was made like this so why act so surprised when we believe in different things?
 
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Rae

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Yet another mischaracterization of Paganism by a Christian in order to make his religion look better. Why do Christians feel the need to do this? If their religion really is better, they don't need to put others' down; if it isn't, they shouldn't make it look worse by lying about the rest of us.

This is sad.
 
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