An Interested Pantheist.

[Spoonbill]

Hi CF

My name is Raul and I am 28 years old. I understand that many athiests / non-Christian people come onto this forum with nothing but abuse and ridicule towards yourselfs. Please let me just state from the start, I am not a troll. I wish to only show the utmost respect towards yourselves (we are all human beings after all) and I do not wish to offend anyone.

I find religion (as a whole) very interesting, and I only wish to hear some Christians thoughts on some issues. I think this could make for a very interesting discussion!

All I ask, is that when you give your repsonse, you please also state exactly what form of Christianity you fall under, such as Evangelical, Catholic etc, because it is interesting to see the slight differences in answers because of this.

I will start with myself. I am what is probably best described as a "pantheist". It is a weird one that seems to fall somewhere between Atheist and Theist. Some Pantheist such as myself feel that there is indeed a higher power of sorts binding this incredible universe together. And that it is a "good" power , although I do not follow religion or religious scripture. I guess personally, I have not been shown or given much to validate this for me.

I think my first question to you would be:

If I wanted to be a believer in Christ, surely I would need something to go by that would convince me that this was the right religion and all other beliefs are incorrect. I am sure this applies to almost every belief system.

What would you say to me, that would convince me of the validity of Christianity in particular? Think perhaps what was the deciding factor for yourselves? And why you chose your particular sect of Christianity?

Thank you very much for your time and I appreciate all your time to answer me

Peace and Love
R

 

[Adoniram]

There are many things about the world's religions, including Christianity, that people find "logical," many things that give them comfort, many things that give them a sense of purpose. Otherwise, people would not be drawn to them. Certainly though, all religions other that the one that Christ founded find their authorship in Satan, who does his best to draw people away from the Lord Jesus.

Jesus, on the other hand, is "the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him." (John 14:6) Jesus proved this by defeating death, rising again (witnessed by hundreds of people), to show that His message is true. He has the power to lay down His life, which He did for all mankind, and take it up again, and He has the power to give life to those who follow Him. Choose life, choose Jesus Christ.

Oh, BTW, I'm non-denominational with leanings toward evangelical.

 

[Spoonbill]

Firstly Adoniram, thank you very much for your response I hope you don't mind if we delve right into this.

There are many things about the world's religions, including Christianity, that people find "logical," many things that give them comfort, many things that give them a sense of purpose. Otherwise, people would not be drawn to them.

Indeed. Although I wouldn't neccessarily say "logical". "Faith" is not a logical thing by definition. Its exactly that, faith. Although not being "logical" is not entirely bad like most athiests would suggest. Even some Athiests have "faith" that there is no God for instance. To a degree, even science is a faith. Faith can give one drive and reason, regardless of belief in my opinion.

Certainly though, all religions other that the one that Christ founded find their authorship in Satan, who does his best to draw people away from the Lord Jesus.

I have to respectfully disagree here. There are many religions far older than Christianity. How could another religion be spawned from Satanism long before Satanism even existed? Take for instance Paganism. It is an age-old religion sometimes mistaken for "evil" practices. In fact, the very Goat-like image Christians have given to the Devil was taken from Pan, the Goat boy who was the embodiment of nature for Pagan followers. He was not regarded as good or evil, but pure "neutral". Indeed even the upside down pentagram regarded as "Satanic" by many Christians was also taken from the Pagan belief, although it represented something entirely different. It was a worship of nature rather than "The Devil" so to speak.

Jesus, on the other hand, is "the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through Him." (John 14:6) Jesus proved this by defeating death, rising again (witnessed by hundreds of people), to show that His message is true. He has the power to lay down His life, which He did for all mankind, and take it up again, and He has the power to give life to those who follow Him. Choose life, choose Jesus Christ.

Oh, BTW, I'm non-denominational with leanings toward evangelical.

I know the verse well. I too would probably be a follower of Christ if (ironically enough) it wasn't mentioned only in the Bible. I think this is probably why I have not been able to full accept the notion of Jesus coming back to life. To be perfectly honest. I believe Jesus was a real person, and that he existed. I have no doubt he was probably a saint too. I just do not believe in the resurection, as logically, that is impossible.
I have personally read far too many inaccuracies in the Bible for me to entirely take it literally. I do not wish to cause offense, please understand this is just my personal view. I could be entirely wrong.

Quoting scripture from the Bible is not enough to prove to me he is really the son of God. The Bible is a physical thing. Written by men. Printed on paper. Written with ink. etc. If I had evidence that this book was in fact divine, I would probably change my mind about Christianity very quickly. I have not been able to find this confirmation though.

This I suppose is where Faith comes in.

 

[BobW188]

It is certainly impossible for you or I, Spoonbill, to raise ourselves from the dead but, if Jesus is who he says he is - the incarnate son of God and (from a trinitarian standpoint) a co-creator of the universe - how is it impossible for Him?

It seems to me that you (in company with a great many people) are stuck on a view of God as a Great Big Man. He - as Father, Son and Spirit - is of an entirely different order than us. It's hardly too much to believe that the creator of natural processes (death and decomposition) could not reverse them.

If you have not already done so, read or reread the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Could this man be who he says he is? If so, there's really no problem to a resurrection.

Note that Adoniram refers to Satan, not Satanism. We see Satan as an archangel who rebelled and "set up on his own." He predates not only his namesake religion but all the others.

As for me, I subscribe to the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds and attend Protestant churches.

 

[Spoonbill]

It is certainly impossible for you or I, Spoonbill, to raise ourselves from the dead but, if Jesus is who he says he is - the incarnate son of God and (from a trinitarian standpoint) a co-creator of the universe - how is it impossible for Him?

It seems to me that you (in company with a great many people) are stuck on a view of God as a Great Big Man. He - as Father, Son and Spirit - is of an entirely different order than us. It's hardly too much to believe that the creator of natural processes (death and decomposition) could not reverse them.

If you have not already done so, read or reread the four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Could this man be who he says he is? If so, there's really no problem to a resurrection.

Note that Adoniram refers to Satan, not Satanism. We see Satan as an archangel who rebelled and "set up on his own." He predates not only his namesake religion but all the others.

As for me, I subscribe to the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds and attend Protestant churches.

Thank you for your response.

Another thing that I find strange is that almost all here who are Christians are Christians because they were born into a Christian environment. If you were born in India, you would most likely be Hindu or perhaps Muslim. If you were born into some rural Amazonian tribe you would probably live your entire life without the concept of religion at all. It would be highly unlikely you would be a Christian.

So it is safe you say, a lot of people are Christians simply because they are a product of their environment. So being born in a different country already condemns you to Hell? Thats rough man. Surely God does not want Muslims, Hindu and Buddhist people to go to Hell?

To me, this just doesnt seem fair.

 

[Adoniram]

Firstly Adoniram, thank you very much for your response I hope you don't mind if we delve right into this.



Indeed. Although I wouldn't neccessarily say "logical". "Faith" is not a logical thing by definition. Its exactly that, faith. Although not being "logical" is not entirely bad like most athiests would suggest. Even some Athiests have "faith" that there is no God for instance. To a degree, even science is a faith. Faith can give one drive and reason, regardless of belief in my opinion.

Perhaps you do not understand what faith is, instead falling in with those who think it is believing something in the absence of proof. But that is not what faith is to a Christian, at least the Christians that I hang with. Faith is the assurance of something that we know. And it is indeed logical to believe something that we know.

I have to respectfully disagree here. There are many religions far older than Christianity. How could another religion be spawned from Satanism long before Satanism even existed? Take for instance Paganism. It is an age-old religion sometimes mistaken for "evil" practices. In fact, the very Goat-like image Christians have given to the Devil was taken from Pan, the Goat boy who was the embodiment of nature for Pagan followers. He was not regarded as good or evil, but pure "neutral". Indeed even the upside down pentagram regarded as "Satanic" by many Christians was also taken from the Pagan belief, although it represented something entirely different. It was a worship of nature rather than "The Devil" so to speak.

Yes, there are older religions, and I did misspeak, forgetting about Judaism. Judaism was a faith founded by God himself by a covenant with Abraham, but it has since been supplanted by God's new covenant, Christianity. So, I should have said, other than Judaism and Christianity, all religions are spawned by Satan. Paganism is merely an all-encompassing grouping of religions, anything but faith in the one true God. It has nothing necessarily to do with the worship of Satan, though Satanism may be included. Since the temptation of Eve in the garden, Satan has been trying to put enmity between God and humanity, and he uses pagan religions, among other things, to do so. Christ said "if you are not for me, you are against me." There is no inbetween, it's either or.

I know the verse well. I too would probably be a follower of Christ if (ironically enough) it wasn't mentioned only in the Bible. I think this is probably why I have not been able to full accept the notion of Jesus coming back to life. To be perfectly honest. I believe Jesus was a real person, and that he existed. I have no doubt he was probably a saint too. I just do not believe in the resurection, as logically, that is impossible.
I have personally read far too many inaccuracies in the Bible for me to entirely take it literally. I do not wish to cause offense, please understand this is just my personal view. I could be entirely wrong.

Quoting scripture from the Bible is not enough to prove to me he is really the son of God. The Bible is a physical thing. Written by men. Printed on paper. Written with ink. etc. If I had evidence that this book was in fact divine, I would probably change my mind about Christianity very quickly. I have not been able to find this confirmation though.

This I suppose is where Faith comes in.

I don't wish to cast dispersions on your research, but I've found plenty of support favoring the very things that you find contentious. May I suggest a book that pulls a lot of research together into one place, more than you could possibly need to make an informed decision: Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict." It is a critical study of the Bible's veracity, it's historical validity, it's compilation, authorship, the truth of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, including extra-Biblical support, and much, much more. It would be well worth your while to check it out.

Good luck.

 

[ebia]

All I ask, is that when you give your repsonse, you please also state exactly what form of Christianity you fall under, such as Evangelical, Catholic etc, because it is interesting to see the slight differences in answers because of this.

Anglican.

What would you say to me, that would convince me of the validity of Christianity in particular? Think perhaps what was the deciding factor for yourselves? And why you chose your particular sect of Christianity?

I would seek to ensure that what you understand is actually what Christianity says, and in particular that you have heard the gospel, but what might convince you will vary enormously. Most people do not come to faith (or most other fundamental beliefs) through logical argument but through relational experience. So the primary things are (a) that you aren't put off by a misconception about Christianity and (b) that you are welcomed.

 

[Sketcher]

I'm a conservative evangelical.

What would you say to me, that would convince me of the validity of Christianity in particular? Think perhaps what was the deciding factor for yourselves? And why you chose your particular sect of Christianity

Well, I don't intend this to be some silver bullet answer for you, but what I both like and find true is this: The universe is indeed created and maintained by God. And he is distinct from this creation, he is good, he knows all, he's big enough for everybody all at once, he doesn't take vacations, and he is powerful enough to do anything. He sees little old me, has known me fully from my very beginning, up until now, and will continue to do so forever. In spite of how bad I have been to him, he cares for me, has made me his adopted child, and he answers my prayers. And what he has done, is doing, and will do for me is possible for anyone else.

 

[salida]

I'm a christian spiritually first and for intellectual reasons second. There are a many reasons; but I will mention a few. There is overwhelming circumstantial evidence of the bible. Because of its attributes I believe it could only be written by God using imperfect men. You may want to visit: www.TheBibleProofBook.com and read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell. This guy started out by trying to prove the bible wrong but it backfired on him. Another reason: www.livingwaters.com/good/

 

[BobW188]

Responding to your response to me, you are quite right that I and most others were born into a Christian environment. However, anyone contributing to these forums was also born into an increasingly skeptical and secular environment and, usually by our high school years and almost invariably afterwards, have had our faith challenged. In fact, many posters here would be better described as having returned to Christianity than as having adhered to it throughout our lives. Many of my generation, born and baptized as Christians, have explored and followed Hinduism and Buddhism. Some remain in these faiths, others have returned to the Christian fold but are enriched with such truths as these have.

As to the afterlife fate of those practicing other religions, I do not speculate. I believe God judges both justly and mercifully; and knows better than we do ourselves whether or not we love Jesus Christ. It certainly takes little effort to find Buddhists, Hindi, Taoists and others whose lives show a higher standard of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and relieving the suffering than most lifelong, professing Christians.

It goes without saying that what I have just said is far from the only viewpoint advanced by Christians; and I warn you in your explorations of our faith to beware making sweeping judgments. The fact is, I question that the term "Christian" really has that much meaning anymore. You'll find some of us who would join you in doubting the literal truth of the resurrection. Some deny the possibility of miracles. Some, though still calling themselves Christians, go so far as to deny the divinity of their namesake.

I would suggest you pick up C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity or Case for Christianity and give it a look. They are readily available and reasonably priced at most chain bookstores and online, and come as close as any work I know to describing what we might call "consensus Christianity."

 

[childofGod31]

Hi CF

My name is Raul and I am 28 years old. I understand that many athiests / non-Christian people come onto this forum with nothing but abuse and ridicule towards yourselfs. Please let me just state from the start, I am not a troll. I wish to only show the utmost respect towards yourselves (we are all human beings after all) and I do not wish to offend anyone.

I find religion (as a whole) very interesting, and I only wish to hear some Christians thoughts on some issues. I think this could make for a very interesting discussion!

All I ask, is that when you give your repsonse, you please also state exactly what form of Christianity you fall under, such as Evangelical, Catholic etc, because it is interesting to see the slight differences in answers because of this.

I will start with myself. I am what is probably best described as a "pantheist". It is a weird one that seems to fall somewhere between Atheist and Theist. Some Pantheist such as myself feel that there is indeed a higher power of sorts binding this incredible universe together. And that it is a "good" power , although I do not follow religion or religious scripture. I guess personally, I have not been shown or given much to validate this for me.

I think my first question to you would be:

If I wanted to be a believer in Christ, surely I would need something to go by that would convince me that this was the right religion and all other beliefs are incorrect. I am sure this applies to almost every belief system.

What would you say to me, that would convince me of the validity of Christianity in particular? Think perhaps what was the deciding factor for yourselves? And why you chose your particular sect of Christianity?

Thank you very much for your time and I appreciate all your time to answer me

Peace and Love
R

There is no easy way to know the truth. There is only one true way, but it's masked by a whole bunch fake ones.

I could say that the Bible is the only true way. But why should you believe it?

But here is what I believe: there is a Creator out there, who is the TRUTH, the life and THE WAY. And He reveals Himself to all who really honestly and truly seek the truth (and don't just choose to believe what sounds good).

The truth is found by those who seek it.

My recommendation is: read the Bible, talk to your Creator in your thoughts (He is everywhere, He hears you) and see if something resounds deep within.

Many will be deceived. The Bible says that it's because they don't really love the truth. So if you love the truth, and you invest time in seeking it, you will find it. God said that I will be found by those who seek Me. It's not an easy road. It requires effort and diligence, but there is a reward at the end (as happens anytime when anybody is seeking the hidden treasure).

Jesus Christ has preached the God who loves the world, who died for the world. That's the one I believe in. That's the one who talks to me.

But then many people say that God talks to them, but instead, they are talking to demon spirits...
As I said (and the Bible claims it too), many will be deceived and it's hard to know the truth from fake. And only those with hearts for the truth will find it.

So talk to God the Creator and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. (and read the Bible) But you must remember, He will only be found if you seek Him "with all your heart, soul and mind"

 

[98cwitr]

im a baptist because i go to a baptist church and I feel comfortable there. This does not mean that I believe EVERYTHING that a literal baptist does nor do I hold the same doctrines. I have my own beliefs and they may or may not be the same as the baptist doctrine.

 

[Joveia]

All I ask, is that when you give your repsonse, you please also state exactly what form of Christianity you fall under, such as Evangelical, Catholic etc, because it is interesting to see the slight differences in answers because of this.

Non-denominational, but I attend an Anglican evangelical church.

What would you say to me, that would convince me of the validity of Christianity in particular? Think perhaps what was the deciding factor for yourselves? And why you chose your particular sect of Christianity?

For me it's mainly because the Christian point-of-view fits really well together philosophically, and explains everything so much better than any other viewpoint I've found (everything including e.g. experience as well as intellectual stuff).

In philosophy (my background) often schools of thought are adopted because they have evidence for them which shoots down opposing views. But sometimes a school of thought isn't like that, but it's still really persuasive because it fits together neatly and makes sense of philosophy as a whole. A great example of this is the philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein. He couldn't tear apart opposing ideas, but he still had the most popular school of thought in philosophy for a while because his ideas made so much sense in and of themselves. I think Christianity, for me, is a bit like this.

A brief argument. One of the reasons why people are religious is that they find it hard to believe that something came out of nothing (i.e. the big bang out of nothing). This is part of a broader question: why is there something rather than nothing? The best answer I've found is that there is an infinite reality which, being infinite and eternal, does not need an explanation like the universe does. It makes sense that this infinite reality is a mind, otherwise why would something entirely different to it - a finite universe - ever come out of it?

There's also the profound difference between the world of mental intentions; consciousness, and inanimate matter. Maybe there's inanimate matter at the very foundation of existence, when you go all the way down, but why assume that? If you don't, then the religious view of a mind being at the foundation of reality looks just as probable.

So let's say there's a God behind it all. Why would It create anything? Maybe it's a complete mystery, but there's a motive that makes sense. An infinite God would need nothing, but there's something a loving infinite God can do that has a lot of worth that It cannot logically fulfill in Itself. A loving infinite God can create other minds and give them eternal happiness, and this cannot be fulfilled within the God. Hence an understandable motive for a self-sufficient loving infinite God to create us.

But if there's a loving infinite God then this world makes no sense. There's evil. But if we're made in the image of a God who is love then there could be awful consequences when we fail to be loving. We could even be separated from God as a result, which Christianity teaches, which could help to explain evil.

If there's a problem with humanity that needs to be fixed then the Christian view makes a lot of sense. Even the most holy and righteous people have lots of flaws. Christianity is the only religion that teaches salvation has to be done 100% by God, not humanity (grace). This makes sense of our experiences of human fallenness.

So Christianity for me makes sense because it fits together really well (this is only a part of what I could write) and fits with all of my experiences, and so I believe it even though I haven't taken down other viewpoints.