An Impossible Paradox!

[Charlesinflorida]

2TH 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

This passage is considered the silver bullet of the Pretrib doctrine. It hangs on the one who “letteth” (restrains) being taken out of the way. The pretrib position is that this restraining one is either
1. The Holy Spirit or
2. The spirit filled Church.

The accepted understanding is that the presence of Gods spirit in the believers is what holds evil in check in this age. If the Holy spirit is taken away then the Church must also be taken away because the Holy spirit is promised to remain with the believers until the rapture and resurrection. This belief also necessitates the formation of a separate group of believers known as “The Tribulation Saints” (those who are saved after the church is removed) It also delegates the tribulation to be the exclusive burden of the Jews. It is anti-Semitic at its very heart.

The problem with this first off is that it denies the meaning of the passage in its most literal terms and further it creates a paradox that can not be resolved. The subject of this passage is concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him. This gathering is the rapture of the Church. But we can not ignore the fact that as stated by Paul, this gathering together will not in any way take place until two other things take place first:

1. The Apostasy, or falling away from sound doctrine
2. The Antichrist is revealed

These two must take place before the gathering of the believers to the Lord. Now where the Paradox is created is that the pretrib doctrine says that the Church is what is “Witholding” or preventing the Apostasy and the antichrist from coming to pass. If we follow this logic to it’s conclusion, then the Church must be removed before anything can happen, including things that ultimately lead to the removal of the Church. Here is what is stated by the passage:

1. A restraining force is taken out of the way. Verses 6,7
2. The Apostasy will come verses 3,4
3. The Antichrist revealed verses 3,4
4. The Church gathered verse 1-3
5. The Antichrist destroyed verses 8,9

The pretrib believers suppose that the restraining force is the Holy Spirit or the Spirit filled church which violates the meaning of the verse which says that the Churches removal is preceded by the apostasy and the Antichrist being revealed. The paradox is; you can not remove something whose removal is dependant on its having already been removed. That is to say, you can not remove the church so that the apostasy and antichrist can be revealed so that the church can be removed. In this case the church would never be removed, it would be impossible. Now part of the reason for this misunderstanding is because of poor teaching but some of the responsibility must be assumed by those with poor study habits. Lets look again at this letter of Paul’s because this issue of the Churches being gathered is the central theme and he states what must happen more than once.

II Thes 1: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here again Paul speaks first about the tribulations which these believers were suffering for the sake of the Gospel and he assures them that there is yet a rest coming for them. He says that we all will enter that rest together and at the same time. That rest is our being taken out of this world of conflict and tribulation and resting with the Lord. [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us,

This rest comes when? [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Is this a “ rapture” appearing? No. It is the second coming. There is only two revelations of the Lord. One when He came and died for our sins and the other when He comes to establish His Kingdom. If you have any doubt read it again. Paul makes it very clear that this time of rest begins when the Lord comes in flaming fire to destroy the wicked and to be openly glorified in the saints. This is the second coming, unless you also believe that the Lord will come in flaming fire with his angels and destroy the wicked at the time of pretrib Rapture of the Church.

We will all enter His rest together. There is one church, which includes both the living and the dead in Christ. We are all gathered together at the same time. Isn’t this what Paul plainly said in the previous letter to this church?

I Thes 4: [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
2. and the dead in Christ shall rise first
3. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

Again this is what he said in the letter to the Corinthians:
I Cor 15: [51] Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes the dead shall raise first and then we who remain alive will be caught up with them to the lord. This is the rapture, but it is not pretrib. It is after the tribulation, and just before the wrath of God is poured out on the Antichrist and his empire. It is the same plan which the Lord has had from the very beginning. Lets look at it from the old Testament:

Isaiah 26: [19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

ISA 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

ISA 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Did you see it, the dead are raised up, and the righteous called into their chambers (the ones that He has prepared for us JN 14), and it happens just before the Lord destroys the Antichrist, the serpent and his followers. Do you still think this is before the tribulation begins? Then go back and read what happens before this resurrection and taking away of the righteous:

ISA 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. [2] And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. [4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left….

[18] And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. [19] The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. [20] The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. [21] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. [23] Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

You can read the rest from your own Bibles. Did Yeshua teach a pretrib rapture for the Church? No, and unless Paul is a false teacher, then he did not teach that either. Paul taught it the same way as Yeshua did:

Matt 24: [21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened….

MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

My friends if you have been deceived by this pretribulation doctrine, do not feel defeated. Just repent of it and begin reading the word of God for yourself. His spirit will guide you. The plan of God has not changed. God is not a man that He should change His mind. He is not mocked or fooled and does not need to adapt to a changing situation. He knows the end from the beginning. And He has stated it the same all the way through the scriptures. It is mans desire to deny the truth and to build a Gospel that is easier on the ears and more pleasing to the mind, that causes this confusion. The Lord has stated it so clearly for us. It is only the false teachings of men that have distorted the truth.

The times of Tribulation are already upon us. The Apostasy is here. In fact the false teaching of the pretribulation Rapture which twists the clearly stated plan of God and creates a false secret coming and an anti-Semitic doctrine, may be just one example of this apostasy. Are you ready for what is about to happen on the earth?

Charles In Florida

 

[Svt4Him]

Are you sure you're in the right forum?

 

[Trish1947]

Charlesinflorida

Good Post. I think there has never been a time in history that people are wanting to know the truth.. No longer are they accepting a doctrine just because of what has been taught for years. They are opening their Bibles and reading searching, praying, wanting to know the truth for themselves.

I think that part of the desception or should I say misconception has been their confusion of the words Tribulation and Wrath. For years people have assumed that tribulation was from God against evil men. Now they are seeing that there is a difference between tribulation and wrath. Some want to jump to the assumption that if your a post trib believer, that you dont believe in the catching away (rapture) of the saints. And of course that is not the case. I think God is showing His people, the time is now, to know these things.

And yes I am a Chrismatic, but I'm also a post trib believer. You can be both. It's how I understand what Paul said, about when the time of Jesus return.

 

[Boanerge]

What can you say about Jesus saying "one will be plowing the other will be taken away." and that He will come like a thief in the night?

 

[enoch son]

First there is niether JEW OR GREEK in Christ! The anti semitic thing is alittle over the top. It's the save go Jew or Greek and everyone else stays bottom line. 1 Thessaionians 9 "For God has not destined us for WRATH, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ," The takening out (ver. 7 of 2 thes.) happeans first before the lawless one is revealed. In less you think that we as son of God are so blind we will not know the anti-christ at sight. But this is all up for debate because I know brothern who say it happean in AD 70 anyway. I believe that as follower of Jesus the anointed one I'm commanded to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and take that as a badge of honor that the Lord will so grace me. And being a Jew inwardly fine the word anti-semitic most detestable. I will gladly die for my brothers and sisters in Christ Jew or Greek. So other then that I enjoy your post and fellowship very much.

 

[Svt4Him]

Actually there are Jew and Greek, but as far as salvation goes, it doesn't matter. There's neither male nor female, but there are clearly differences, even in the rolls God gives.

 

[enoch son]

OK! How about saved or unsaved?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

What can you say about Jesus saying "one will be plowing the other will be taken away." and that He will come like a thief in the night?

Hello Boanerge,

In both cases he is making a statement about the sudden and unexpected nature of his return to those who plod blissfully along. He speaks of how it was in the days of Noach and how the floor swept them all away. It was the unrighteous who were swept away, not the righteous. Noach and the elect were preserved in the midst of the flood.

And again like a theif in the night, means that there are those who will live in complete oblivion with no concern about what their standing is with God. If they had been on their toes concerning their lives they would not allow the strong man to break in in the night.

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

2TH 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

This passage is considered the silver bullet of the Pretrib doctrine. It hangs on the one who “letteth” (restrains) being taken out of the way. The pretrib position is that this restraining one is either
1. The Holy Spirit or
2. The spirit filled Church.

The accepted understanding is that the presence of Gods spirit in the believers is what holds evil in check in this age. If the Holy spirit is taken away then the Church must also be taken away because the Holy spirit is promised to remain with the believers until the rapture and resurrection. This belief also necessitates the formation of a separate group of believers known as “The Tribulation Saints” (those who are saved after the church is removed) It also delegates the tribulation to be the exclusive burden of the Jews. It is anti-Semitic at its very heart.

The problem with this first off is that it denies the meaning of the passage in its most literal terms and further it creates a paradox that can not be resolved. The subject of this passage is concerning the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him. This gathering is the rapture of the Church. But we can not ignore the fact that as stated by Paul, this gathering together will not in any way take place until two other things take place first:

1. The Apostasy, or falling away from sound doctrine
2. The Antichrist is revealed

These two must take place before the gathering of the believers to the Lord. Now where the Paradox is created is that the pretrib doctrine says that the Church is what is “Witholding” or preventing the Apostasy and the antichrist from coming to pass. If we follow this logic to it’s conclusion, then the Church must be removed before anything can happen, including things that ultimately lead to the removal of the Church. Here is what is stated by the passage:

1. A restraining force is taken out of the way. Verses 6,7
2. The Apostasy will come verses 3,4
3. The Antichrist revealed verses 3,4
4. The Church gathered verse 1-3
5. The Antichrist destroyed verses 8,9

The pretrib believers suppose that the restraining force is the Holy Spirit or the Spirit filled church which violates the meaning of the verse which says that the Churches removal is preceded by the apostasy and the Antichrist being revealed. The paradox is; you can not remove something whose removal is dependant on its having already been removed. That is to say, you can not remove the church so that the apostasy and antichrist can be revealed so that the church can be removed. In this case the church would never be removed, it would be impossible. Now part of the reason for this misunderstanding is because of poor teaching but some of the responsibility must be assumed by those with poor study habits. Lets look again at this letter of Paul’s because this issue of the Churches being gathered is the central theme and he states what must happen more than once.

II Thes 1: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here again Paul speaks first about the tribulations which these believers were suffering for the sake of the Gospel and he assures them that there is yet a rest coming for them. He says that we all will enter that rest together and at the same time. That rest is our being taken out of this world of conflict and tribulation and resting with the Lord. [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us,

This rest comes when? [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Is this a “ rapture” appearing? No. It is the second coming. There is only two revelations of the Lord. One when He came and died for our sins and the other when He comes to establish His Kingdom. If you have any doubt read it again. Paul makes it very clear that this time of rest begins when the Lord comes in flaming fire to destroy the wicked and to be openly glorified in the saints. This is the second coming, unless you also believe that the Lord will come in flaming fire with his angels and destroy the wicked at the time of pretrib Rapture of the Church.

We will all enter His rest together. There is one church, which includes both the living and the dead in Christ. We are all gathered together at the same time. Isn’t this what Paul plainly said in the previous letter to this church?

I Thes 4: [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1. the Lord himself shall descend from heaven
2. and the dead in Christ shall rise first
3. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

Again this is what he said in the letter to the Corinthians:
I Cor 15: [51] Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes the dead shall raise first and then we who remain alive will be caught up with them to the lord. This is the rapture, but it is not pretrib. It is after the tribulation, and just before the wrath of God is poured out on the Antichrist and his empire. It is the same plan which the Lord has had from the very beginning. Lets look at it from the old Testament:

Isaiah 26: [19] Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

ISA 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

ISA 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Did you see it, the dead are raised up, and the righteous called into their chambers (the ones that He has prepared for us JN 14), and it happens just before the Lord destroys the Antichrist, the serpent and his followers. Do you still think this is before the tribulation begins? Then go back and read what happens before this resurrection and taking away of the righteous:

ISA 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. [2] And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him. [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. [4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. [5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. [6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left….

[18] And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. [19] The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. [20] The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. [21] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. [23] Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

You can read the rest from your own Bibles. Did Yeshua teach a pretrib rapture for the Church? No, and unless Paul is a false teacher, then he did not teach that either. Paul taught it the same way as Yeshua did:

Matt 24: [21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened….

MT 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

My friends if you have been deceived by this pretribulation doctrine, do not feel defeated. Just repent of it and begin reading the word of God for yourself. His spirit will guide you. The plan of God has not changed. God is not a man that He should change His mind. He is not mocked or fooled and does not need to adapt to a changing situation. He knows the end from the beginning. And He has stated it the same all the way through the scriptures. It is mans desire to deny the truth and to build a Gospel that is easier on the ears and more pleasing to the mind, that causes this confusion. The Lord has stated it so clearly for us. It is only the false teachings of men that have distorted the truth.

The times of Tribulation are already upon us. The Apostasy is here. In fact the false teaching of the pretribulation Rapture which twists the clearly stated plan of God and creates a false secret coming and an anti-Semitic doctrine, may be just one example of this apostasy. Are you ready for what is about to happen on the earth?

Charles In Florida

I have only seen the paradox you purpose in one place, your post.

Before we go any further with this, unless you start yet another thread in attempt to prove your point, you insist the dead do not rise until the second coming. You insist that there is only one rapture. How then do you explain the dead that arose at the time of Christ's ascension? I ask this question elsewhere and you simply scoffed at it but it does pose a threat to the "one rapture only" theory for this in istself was a "rapture" of the dead. AnAnd then we have Enoch, Elijah, the apparent secret rapture of the 144,000 and those who John say were resurrected during the 1000 year reign (the first ressurection). "One rapture only?", there appears to be more than one!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I have only seen the paradox you purpose in one place, your post.

Before we go any further with this, unless you start yet another thread in attempt to prove your point, you insist the dead do not rise until the second coming. You insist that there is only one rapture. How then do you explain the dead that arose at the time of Christ's ascension? I ask this question elsewhere and you simply scoffed at it but it does pose a threat to the "one rapture only" theory for this in istself was a "rapture" of the dead. AnAnd then we have Enoch, Elijah, the apparent secret rapture of the 144,000 and those who John say were resurrected during the 1000 year reign (the first ressurection). "One rapture only?", there appears to be more than one!

Marine,

The paradox is obvious. You can no remove the church if one of the requirements is that it is aleady removed.

The resurrection of the few at the crucifixion, the little girl that Elijah raised up, the few that Yeshua raised up; what happened to these people? Is there any scriptural evidence that they received their immortal bodies at that time? Or did they simply receive a reprieve from death? The Resurection of the righteous dead, and the glorification of the liing all involves "Putting on immortality" and it is for the entire group of faithful throughout all the ages. It is not a small group or a single individual case. They are in no way to be compared.

There are only two resurecions of large groups in the scriptures and both result in eternal life. The resurection of the righteous at the Lords return, and the resurection of the evil at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Where does John say anything about people being resurrected during the 1000 year Kingdom?

Here is something that you might have overlooked. During the millennial Kingdom there are two types of people, those who are in glorified bodies, and live with the Lord, and those who are still in flesh bodies, who live as subjects of the Kingdom. These flesh people will live greatly extended lives because there will be no more wars, or disease, or hunger. The scriptures say that if a man die 100 years old he would be considered a child or under a curse. These are the ones who will repopulate the earth during the Kingdom. They will still be flesh and bear children. We are told that the glorified body is not like the flesh, that it is like the angels and are not male or female in a reproductive sense.

Some of these flesh bodied people will once again fall into rebellion and we have another Gog, Magog situation. But this time(after the 1000 years when satan is released) there will be a final judgement, of the evil dead of all ages, and the living rebels. At that time we are told, God will do away will all the former ways, and flesh will be no more. It seems that all will become spirit in nature, which is yet again different from a glorified body.

I know you are tired of this conversation. But if you wouldn't mind, could you show me where John says there will be resurrection throughout the Millennial Kingdom?

Charles in Florida

 

[PatrickM]

My friends if you have been deceived by this pretribulation doctrine, do not feel defeated. Just repent of it and begin reading the word of God for yourself.

It is this statement that is diconcerting. You think it an actual *sin* to believe pretrib?

When Paul corrected the Corinthians who were saying "I am of Paul, Apollos" etc, he did not actually tell them to *repent* of this. Merely to correct it and go on.

 

[Godz Marine]

I know you are tired of this conversation. But if you wouldn't mind, could you show me where John says there will be resurrection throughout the Millennial Kingdom?

Charles in Florida

First, are you trying to say that one or a small group of people do not matter to God? I seems you simply dismiss these accounts due to the amount involved because they are detrimental to your claims. I believe that if they could be "taken up" outside of the prophecy you use to substanciate your claims then perhaps the same could happen to the church also.

Now, I never said that John proclaimed that there will be ressurection throughout the Millennial reign of Christ. I simply said that John mentioned a ressurection taking place during.

As for the scriptual reference,

Revelation 20:4, And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. NKJV

Now these could be from the last part of the Tribulation but John mentioned them being resurrected at the beginniong of the 1000 year reign. These went through the Great Tribulation till the end. This is clear because they were present at the time of the mark of the beast which began at mid-week and will continue until the end of the power of the beast which is right before the Millenial reign. Then they were resurrected.

 

[Godz Marine]

It is this statement that is diconcerting. You think it an actual *sin* to believe pretrib?

When Paul corrected the Corinthians who were saying "I am of Paul, Apollos" etc, he did not actually tell them to *repent* of this. Merely to correct it and go on.

Patrick,

I do not think that Charles is implying that if one believes in the pre-trib doctrine that they need to repent of sin but that they need to turn and repent of following the deception within it as he imposes it is filled with.

 

[Godz Marine]

Charles in Florida[/QUOTE]

The paradox is obvious. You can no remove the church if one of the requirements is that it is aleady removed.

I can see how you have created your paradox. You have combined both the pre and mid-trib views. This is the only way you can have this paradox.

Mid-tribbers believe the church isn't raptured until mid-week thus when viewed at the same time as the pre-trib view we can see the paradox..
Pre-tribbers believe the church will go sometime before the week begins, thus no paradox.

You are creating your paradox based upon mid-trib belief, not pre. I say this because you say the church cannot be removed if the church is already removed. A pre-tribber would not say this for they believe the church is gone pre-week.

I find this paradox you present to be nothing more than a strawman brought forth by circular reasoning, sorry.

 

[crystalpc]

And yes I am a Chrismatic, but I'm also a post trib believer. You can be both. It's how I understand what Paul said, about when the time of Jesus return.

Good post Trish. I particularly like this quote. I too am "charismatic", and WOF too, yet I am post-trib. We have even had a pastor who says, "you can have what you say, those of you who talk post trib will be here", "those who believe in pre trib, me included, will meet you there".
I always say, yep who know's you may be the first resurrected

 

[Charlesinflorida]

It is this statement that is diconcerting. You think it an actual *sin* to believe pretrib?

When Paul corrected the Corinthians who were saying "I am of Paul, Apollos" etc, he did not actually tell them to *repent* of this. Merely to correct it and go on.

PatrickM,

Not sin, but deception. (And I know that some will be upset with that label as well, sorry for that.) There is a lot of extra baggage attached to this doctrine. And I really have not met anyone except Marine who really came to the pretrib idea independently, without any suggestions or input from others. Most get the idea rom their church or books and movies of popular writers.

I was previously pretrib, but became really concerned when I was finding lots of things that did not prove out scripturally or were out of context.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

First, are you trying to say that one or a small group of people do not matter to God? I seems you simply dismiss these accounts due to the amount involved because they are detrimental to your claims. I believe that if they could be "taken up" outside of the prophecy you use to substanciate your claims then perhaps the same could happen to the church also.

Now, I never said that John proclaimed that there will be ressurection throughout the Millennial reign of Christ. I simply said that John mentioned a ressurection taking place during. . .



Now these could be from the last part of the Tribulation but John mentioned them being resurrected at the beginniong of the 1000 year reign. These went through the Great Tribulation till the end. This is clear because they were present at the time of the mark of the beast which began at mid-week and will continue until the end of the power of the beast which is right before the Millenial reign. Then they were resurrected.

Those in Rev 20:4 are not just raised up at that very moment. They are being reported by John as being present in this scene but were resurrected at the second coming when all the other righteous dead were raised up. What you are saying above that these came out of the tribulation is correct. And yes they WERE resurected at the end of the Tribulation, at the second coming. The millenial reign begins right after Armageddon which is the WRATH of God against the beast empire.

Modern theologians have created several new classes of people that do not have any validity from scripture, such as "Tribulation saints" (Those saved after the rapture), The reduced and limited number of saved Jews, the 144000 the only ones of all the Jews to be saved. :o

Charles in Florida

 

[Godz Marine]

Charles in Florida[/QUOTE]

but became really concerned when I was finding lots of things that did not prove out scripturally or were out of context.

There are several things with mid and post-trib views which do not line up and or are taken out of context also. Wouldn't this mean that those who hold these views are decieved also?


It is quite apparent that further discussion of this topic will no longer bear any fruit. It has come to the point of strawmen, finger pointing, and proclamations of deception. A biasness has been made quite clear, anyone who doesn't agree with the mid-trip view is wrong. I was truly hoping that this conversation could be based on the fact that not one of us has all the answers and much of our revelation we glean from the Word is based on our faith of it. Oh well, as I said in the beginning of another thread, our view of when isn't detrimental to our salvation.

Shalom!

 

[Trish1947]

It seems like we've beat this horse long enough.. People have their opinions on how they interpret the scriptures. It's been going on for hundreds of years. LOL..

 

[PatrickM]

PatrickM,
Not sin, but deception. (And I know that some will be upset with that label as well, sorry for that.)

Well every example in the Bible connected with repentence is always regarding sin. Can you tell me for what else but sin do we need repentence? And what is deception if not lying by another word? Wouldn't that be sin?

And I really have not met anyone except Marine who really came to the pretrib idea independently, without any suggestions or input from others. Most get the idea rom their church or books and movies of popular writers.

Charles, what basic doctrine, from justification to sanctification, did you not learn from someone else? Even the gospel is believed by hearing from others is it not? Rom 10:14, "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

I don't think a doctrine should be discounted because one learns it from another, else why have pastors and teachers?