An Impossible Paradox!

[Charlesinflorida]

Well every example in the Bible connected with repentence is always regarding sin. Can you tell me for what else but sin do we need repentence? And what is deception if not lying by another word? Wouldn't that be sin?

Charles, what basic doctrine, from justification to sanctification, did you not learn from someone else? Even the gospel is believed by hearing from others is it not? Rom 10:14, "How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

I don't think a doctrine should be discounted because one learns it from another, else why have pastors and teachers?

Good Point PatrickM and I agree,
we do learn our basic doctrine from others. In the ancient past, this lead to a system where the priests held sway/control over the uneducated masses. They demanded payment in exchange for salvation or for the insured release of some dead realitive from hates. It was a practice that went on for hundreds of years. Once the scriptures were put into print in mass production and the masses became more educated, some of these twisted doctrines were exposed and done away with. It is good to question every doctrine and see if it passes the test of scripture. And in every denomination there are some that won't. Some believe that we should just forget those issues and go on with business as usual, but I don't agree. I think we should expose any incorrect teaching, and direct the church back to the right course. Yeshua, in the revelation, does just this, he calls on the churches to "repent" from falling into incorrect doctrines and false teachings, and to return to the truth and do the work that he gave us; Like those who had fallen ino the false doctrines of the nicolatians, or those who followed Jezzebel. The Lord rebukes these churches for error, and tells them to repent, turn around and return to what is right. I speak in those same terms! See Rev 2,3

Now think for a moment of 6.5 million innocent men women and children, Jews mostly, who died in the death camps, at the hands of Christians. Yes. Did you know that the S.S. in charge of the death camps proudly wore belt buckles that bore the inscription "Jesus is Lord". (I now that many NOW say," But they weren't real spirit filled christians") OK but why didn't somebody ask, "How can this be the right thing to do" But seemingly no one did. It is not the only time this has happened, remember the crusades and the inquisition? 60 million killed in that one and not just Jews, but potestants who felt that the roman church doctrines were a departure from the truth of scripture.

No it is our responsibility to ask questions, to pray and to take action if necessary, lest we have another inquisition, or anoher Auswitch. Is pretrib belief like this? No not really. But it does divide the church into Jewish believers, giving the Jews the sole burden of bearing the tribulation and the superior raptured church. It creates a group known only in pretrib circles as "Tribulation saints" who are destined to loose out on all the blessings of the immortal life and are delegated to be the breading stock for repopulating the earth. It is supported by an ultradispensational view which is slanted heavly against all believers, even those who suffer for their faith during the tribulation and makes an elite super group who are the luckiest people in history who are raptured out from in front of their Television sets just for uttering those words, Jesus is Lord.

You see the way scripture lays it out there is only one way of salvation, and it is good throughout all the ages, Faith. And knowing Yeshua as the salvation of God brings the added priviledge of being filled with the Spirit. Now think for a moment of those would be "Tribulation saints" who were left behind in the pretrib rapture. Now they are stranded with no mature leadership or teachers, and they don't have the Holy spirit to guide them, and yet they somehow come to a saving relationship with Messiah that they could not do when the church leadership and the spirit was there?? Not only that but according to the word, a man can not come to salvation unless the spirit draws him? Yet these Trib saints are so bold and faithful that they suffer humiliation, beatings, torture and death. And those who survive, become breading stock? Well you see, I didn't think any of this fit the scriptural test. And it dosen't. And that is why we should ask questions.

Now if you have been following this conversation you will see that I have presented solid scripture for all my positions while my opponent has posted questions and offered comments without scriptural support, but rather bases his answers on the popular theory. Don't take me wrong. I have no dislike for Marine at all. But his lack of scriptural support and his claim that the Spirit alone teaches him what is correct, well it should send up some red flags. Time to look deeper for ourselves. The scriptures are the litmus test for what we believe. And the Lord says repent and return to those thing you first learned from the begining. (And he was speaking of Tanahk,(Old Testament, there was no new testament yet)

I agree that the thread is tired and the moderator I believe agrees. I hope that I have stimulated you all to do the hard work. Dig in there for yourselves and see if what the preachers say is true. We can't be lazy and allow them to think for us. We need to be responsible for what we believe and teach to others.

Blessings to All and Shalom,

Charles in Florida

If others might want to dig deeper I offer this help

http://home.earthlink.net/~cfryalls/

 

[Godz Marine]

Good Point PatrickM and I agree,
we do learn our basic doctrine from others. In the ancient past, this lead to a system where the priests held sway/control over the uneducated masses. They demanded payment in exchange for salvation or for the insured release of some dead realitive from hates. It was a practice that went on for hundreds of years. Once the scriptures were put into print in mass production and the masses became more educated, some of these twisted doctrines were exposed and done away with. It is good to question every doctrine and see if it passes the test of scripture. And in every denomination there are some that won't. Some believe that we should just forget those issues and go on with business as usual, but I don't agree. I think we should expose any incorrect teaching, and direct the church back to the right course. Yeshua, in the revelation, does just this, he calls on the churches to "repent" from falling into incorrect doctrines and false teachings, and to return to the truth and do the work that he gave us; Like those who had fallen ino the false doctrines of the nicolatians, or those who followed Jezzebel. The Lord rebukes these churches for error, and tells them to repent, turn around and return to what is right. I speak in those same terms! See Rev 2,3

Now think for a moment of 6.5 million innocent men women and children, Jews mostly, who died in the death camps, at the hands of Christians. Yes. Did you know that the S.S. in charge of the death camps proudly wore belt buckles that bore the inscription "Jesus is Lord". (I now that many NOW say," But they weren't real spirit filled christians") OK but why didn't somebody ask, "How can this be the right thing to do" But seemingly no one did. It is not the only time this has happened, remember the crusades and the inquisition? 60 million killed in that one and not just Jews, but potestants who felt that the roman church doctrines were a departure from the truth of scripture.

No it is our responsibility to ask questions, to pray and to take action if necessary, lest we have another inquisition, or anoher Auswitch. Is pretrib belief like this? No not really. But it does divide the church into Jewish believers, giving the Jews the sole burden of bearing the tribulation and the superior raptured church. It creates a group known only in pretrib circles as "Tribulation saints" who are destined to loose out on all the blessings of the immortal life and are delegated to be the breading stock for repopulating the earth. It is supported by an ultradispensational view which is slanted heavly against all believers, even those who suffer for their faith during the tribulation and makes an elite super group who are the luckiest people in history who are raptured out from in front of their Television sets just for uttering those words, Jesus is Lord.

You see the way scripture lays it out there is only one way of salvation, and it is good throughout all the ages, Faith. And knowing Yeshua as the salvation of God brings the added priviledge of being filled with the Spirit. Now think for a moment of those would be "Tribulation saints" who were left behind in the pretrib rapture. Now they are stranded with no mature leadership or teachers, and they don't have the Holy spirit to guide them, and yet they somehow come to a saving relationship with Messiah that they could not do when the church leadership and the spirit was there?? Not only that but according to the word, a man can not come to salvation unless the spirit draws him? Yet these Trib saints are so bold and faithful that they suffer humiliation, beatings, torture and death. And those who survive, become breading stock? Well you see, I didn't think any of this fit the scriptural test. And it dosen't. And that is why we should ask questions.

Now if you have been following this conversation you will see that I have presented solid scripture for all my positions while my opponent has posted questions and offered comments without scriptural support, but rather bases his answers on the popular theory. Don't take me wrong. I have no dislike for Marine at all. But his lack of scriptural support and his claim that the Spirit alone teaches him what is correct, well it should send up some red flags. Time to look deeper for ourselves. The scriptures are the litmus test for what we believe. And the Lord says repent and return to those thing you first learned from the begining. (And he was speaking of Tanahk,(Old Testament, there was no new testament yet)

I agree that the thread is tired and the moderator I believe agrees. I hope that I have stimulated you all to do the hard work. Dig in there for yourselves and see if what the preachers say is true. We can't be lazy and allow them to think for us. We need to be responsible for what we believe and teach to others.

Blessings to All and Shalom,

Charles in Florida

If others might want to dig deeper I offer this help

http://home.earthlink.net/~cfryalls/

Now if you have been following this conversation you will see that I have presented solid scripture for all my positions while my opponent has posted questions and offered comments without scriptural support, but rather bases his answers on the popular theory.

Charles, I fully agree, everyone should read for themselves. I time and time again presented solid scriptual evidence, some of which you would completely avoid answering. I give you the book of Daniel as my reference. You also dodged others I presented by simply abondoning one thread to simply start another.

I am sorry I don't agree with your view but scripture does say that no one knows all, that we all know in part. Just as you can find scripture within the pre-trib view that doesn't line up I can find scripture within your view that doesn't line up. I have no problem with this but apparently you do. I have never accused you of being deceived as you have me. I ask of you know for forgiveness for anything I may have done to offend you.

As I have stated elsewhere, my understanding does not come by the Spirit alone but also the study of the scriptures and factual historical records and writings. I simply said I give no creedence to those who claim themselves as an authority. It seems you had forgotten that in your last post in which you find it fit to make an attempt to discredit me. If that is that is the way it is to be then let it be so. I will pray for you and hope the hardness of your historical past will begin to soften. I will pray for the peace of Israel also, especially considering it's place in the 70th week.

In closing, Charles, you once again have made an assumption of my pre-trib belief of which I must tell you that you are wrong. Much of the pre-trib view that you presented in your last post is in no way the pre-trib view of which I beleive. Apparently it is very difficult for you to see what someone is saying once they prefess to be pre-trib and your preconcieved idea that one pre-trib believer is the same as the rest inhibits your ability to listen.

I have never said, " the church is better than the Jews", never! I have never said, "the church is luckier than anyone else." I have never said, " if you don't go up with the church then you ain't gonna' make it." Never said any of that and I never implied it either. Only through your accusations have I even come close to ever having done or said these things. The only thing I have said that may even remotely come close is that the 70th week of Daniel is set aside for rebellious Israel (those who still reject Christ and disobey God) to suffer the wrath of God as God Himself has proclaimed to happen as read in Daniel.

I stand before you as a man with nothing to hide. I have said what I said as seen in scripture. I have not changed from the beginning what I say nor have I attempted to discredit anything which you have said. When presented with scripture I also presented scripture. The only thing I can find that I have done wrong is to simply disagree with you and stand firmly on what I believe. For this I am not sorry but I do again apologize if I have offended you in any way.And let the recored show that I am not anti-Jew.

All for Christ!

 

[Charlesinflorida]

In closing, Charles, you once again have made an assumption of my pre-trib belief of which I must tell you that you are wrong. Much of the pre-trib view that you presented in your last post is in no way the pre-trib view of which I beleive. Apparently it is very difficult for you to see what someone is saying once they prefess to be pre-trib and your preconcieved idea that one pre-trib believer is the same as the rest inhibits your ability to listen.

I have never said, " the church is better than the Jews", never! I have never said, "the church is luckier than anyone else." I have never said, " if you don't go up with the church then you ain't gonna' make it." Never said any of that and I never implied it either. Only through your accusations have I even come close to ever having done or said these things. The only thing I have said that may even remotely come close is that the 70th week of Daniel is set aside for rebellious Israel (those who still reject Christ and disobey God) to suffer the wrath of God as God Himself has proclaimed to happen as read in Daniel.

Marine,
I am sorry to have caused you offense. What you say above is in part correct. I contest many of the "general teachings" of the Pretrib theory, and you personlly do not subscribe to all of these features of the theory. I didn't mean to imply that you did. I was not confronting you personally, but the pretrib theory in general. Perhaps you took too much to yourself to defend. You see over the years I have confronted many pretrib people and out of that there emerges a COMPOSITE IMAGE ,If you will, or a framework that is very common to all who subscribe to the pretrib position. I should not expect you to defend all of those features, as you personally do not believe them.

I have addressed as many of your questions as I could define clearly as being a question. Any that I have unententionally missed I will still glady respond to if you wish.

In closing I state again that I was not attacking you personally at all, but rather the generally suscribed to theory of pretrib.

Shalom,

Charles in Florida