An Example?

[Ainesis]

If you disagree with that, please provide an example of a time when you chose to do something you were unwilling to do followed by your reason for doing it.

I was at a women's conference once and God had given me a new understanding of a portion of Scripture. As the speaker was reading, I was listening. In my thought processes as I digested what the speaker was saying, God spoke to me and corrected my understanding. It was not that my understanding was wrong, but there was more to it than I was getting.

After God explained this to me, I understood. I was thankful for Him sharing that with me as it gave me deeper understanding of that text.

After the conference, the minister was closing it out and God told me to go up to the front, ask for the microphone, and share with the attendees what He had told me. Most here don't know me, but that is completely aganist my character. In my head, I started to hear all of the reasons "Why" I should not do that; most likely everyone already knew this, so I would look stupid; people would laugh at me or disregard me; the leader may not give me the microphone and instead send me back to my chair.... The possibilities wre endless.

Let me tell you, as I was thinking of all of his, the next thing I knew, I was up in front of those people asking the leader for the microphone. I was appalled!!!! "What in the world are you doing??!!!" I screamed in my mind, but now I was up there. I began to share what God told me; and this wound up being a blessing for many people. It was a really 'different' sort of experience let me tell ya. I made no conscious decision to do this and indeed had determined that I would not, but...

I have had numerous times where I was not willing to do something and God compells me to do it anyway. In most cases, I force my will to bend towards what God wants. But in a few cases, (as stated above) it is more akin to God using my body to accomplish His purposes in spite of myself.

Now, pehaps I am just a looney toon.

 

[Reformationist]

Then that begs the question, can we control our desires. If we can control, change and manipulate our desires then would you say there is free will?

When the Lord deigns to regenerate a person from death in their trespasses and sin, a state in which the desires of the flesh reign supreme, to life in the Lord Jesus, our nature has a new desire, that of obeying and serving God in obedience and love. Our new nature continues to war with our old but it is this dichotomy that develops Christian character and strengthens our faith.

When we immerse ourself in prayer and in the Word we are continually strengthened and our goal becomes clearer. We desire to please God and we seek that very thing.

As for man's will being free, well, it is never truly free. We either submit ourselves as slave to righteousness in faith or we act according to a carnal nature and are slaves to our flesh.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I had one of those God moments that illustrates your point.

I was in conversation with a co-worker and I let stand a misconception that I should have corrected. Right at that moment God chose to reveal to me where my loyalty was, and it was not with Him. He showed me clearly that I had just sinned against Him because I wanted the approval of my co-worker over the approval of my Lord and Saviour. My "freewill" was not free at all. It was entirely in subjection to that which I had most desired at that point. Pride.

It was devastating and I was stunned that I could have done such a thing.

Asaph

Too true. Nicely said.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

For will to take place, first a decision has to be made. Then the desire sets in. You may not know the desire when you first set your will, but I think desire helps to keep will on track.

I feel that you have this backwards. You say that a decision is made before our desire sets in yet it is the strength of our desires that determine the decision to be made. We do not choose arbitrarily. The choices we make are based on our desires and that which we desire most when choosing exerts the greatest influence.

It seems to me that your understanding of this allows for the interchange of words, will and desire. In reading your statement I get the feeling you are using either word to describe the action. I am not sure that is how the action takes place, as I describe above.

Not at all. A desire of the heart leads to a decision. When tempted by something, either good or bad, our desire to bring that to fruition is what prompts us to choose in the manner that we do.

I think of a selfish man saying: I want that woman (oh so he has decided on one, think of Mel Brooks). Then the desire sets in until he gets her (as maybe she does not want him).

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. The man saying "I want this woman" shows that a desire is already resident.

I believe it is possible to have a will based on what GOD wants, then fulfilling that will with the use of desire. Will first, then desire.

Only when we desire what God desires will we seek to act in accordance with His law. Desire first, then will.

I think back to the example I gave you on having kids.

I wonder if the following situation might meet the needs you are seeking:

Back in the day, marriages were arranged. At times this happened right when daughters were born. Did her will trump this? Usually not what kind of decision process does a baby have?

A daughter following the Torah understood she was to honor her parents. (a decision that she WILL do this, however finding the desire to do so may not be there, so force could come into play)

So the daughter married whom the parents chose. Can this situation be pleasing to GOD, but against her will? It is possible. She could run away, but if her will was to please GOD to begin with, that would be against her will as well!

Again, this does not trump my position, for her desire to do either God's will or her parents will superceded her desire to not be married to someone she did not choose to be married to. In fact, this, yet again, only reinforces my position.

I could go on to describe the situation how she had to sleep with a husband she did not want to sleep with, have children she did not want to have - so on and so on.

If these things are being committed against her will then she is not choosing to let them happen. I'm not talking about a violation of our will. I'm talking about a choice we make. Even in the scenario you offer, the woman may sublimate her desire to be free of the man's control because she desires to honor God and her parents.

When I describe free will as mentioned in Christianity to someone who is new to concept I use the follow example:

As a child most of us have read the "choose your own adventure" style books.

We can connect this style of writing to GOD's efforts with man.

From the day you are born, GOD had your book written, as a choose your own adventure genre. Within this book, you make your will known by choice as you progress in life. As with the written page, you come to a choice and stop to decide on something. For this decision turn to such and such page, for that, go here. The book progresses until the end when there are no more decisions to be made as a conclusion has been reached by the path you chose. You demonstrated free will within an already written book.

To whom did you demonstrate the freedom of your will? To God? Is it your contention that God does not know the end from the beginning? I don't deny that man makes choices from the time he is born but, again, these choices, if they are rational in nature, i.e., not reflexive, then they are based on what the person wants most. I have three children and am well aware that children are desire driven creations, to the point of sinfulness. Me, me, me, now, now, now. The pages of the book of our lives are not being written as we progress through it. They are already written.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Since "reluctant" is one of the dictionary definitions of "unwilling", many people use the two words interchangeably.

That may be true but, in this context, unwilling clearly means "not willing." If someone is not willing to do something, the only way it will get done is against their will, i.e., they are forced. In such a scenario we would no longer be talking about a choice we make but, rather, a choice that is made for us.

A lot of words have multiple meanings but, in this thread, it is quite clear that "unwilling" and "reluctant" are not synonymous.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I was at a women's conference once and God had given me a new understanding of a portion of Scripture. As the speaker was reading, I was listening. In my thought processes as I digested what the speaker was saying, God spoke to me and corrected my understanding. It was not that my understanding was wrong, but there was more to it than I was getting.

After God explained this to me, I understood. I was thankful for Him sharing that with me as it gave me deeper understanding of that text.

After the conference, the minister was closing it out and God told me to go up to the front, ask for the microphone, and share with the attendees what He had told me. Most here don't know me, but that is completely aganist my character. In my head, I started to hear all of the reasons "Why" I should not do that; most likely everyone already knew this, so I would look stupid; people would laugh at me or disregard me; the leader may not give me the microphone and instead send me back to my chair.... The possibilities wre endless.

Let me tell you, as I was thinking of all of his, the next thing I knew, I was up in front of those people asking the leader for the microphone. I was appalled!!!! "What in the world are you doing??!!!" I screamed in my mind, but now I was up there. I began to share what God told me; and this wound up being a blessing for many people. It was a really 'different' sort of experience let me tell ya. I made no conscious decision to do this and indeed had determined that I would not, but...

I have had numerous times where I was not willing to do something and God compells me to do it anyway. In most cases, I force my will to bend towards what God wants. But in a few cases, (as stated above) it is more akin to God using my body to accomplish His purposes in spite of myself.

Now, pehaps I am just a looney toon.

While that is a wonderful story of faith, it is not really applicable, because you claim you did not choose to do as God instructed. If anything, it shows the lack of man's freedom. If, on the other hand, you went up to the front because you desired to be obedient, well, that just reinforces my position. You sublimated your desire to avoid being embarrassed because of your desire to obey God. Greatest desire overruled lesser desire.

God bless

 

[awildflowerlady]

A desire of the heart leads to a decision

From what I am reading your suggestion that desire is first is based only on an emotional response.

Looking at things with just a logical base, you do indeed wind up with free will minus emotion aka desire.

Lt. Commander Data comes to mind.

 

[Reformationist]

From what I am reading your suggestion that desire is first is based only on an emotional response.

I did not make any assumptions as to what the basis of the particular desire was, so far as I know.

Looking at things with just a logical base, you do indeed wind up with free will minus emotion aka desire.

Lt. Commander Data comes to mind.

Sorry but I don't understand what you mean here.

Are you talking about Data from Star Trek?

God bless

 

[Ainesis]

While that is a wonderful story of faith, it is not really applicable, because you claim you did not choose to do as God instructed. If anything, it shows the lack of man's freedom. If, on the other hand, you went up to the front because you desired to be obedient, well, that just reinforces my position. You sublimated your desire to avoid being embarrassed because of your desire to obey God. Greatest desire overruled lesser desire.

God bless

That is true. But desire is not synonymous with will. Neither is desire a definer of will, although it certainly can be an influencer.

I completely agree about me not doing what God asked at that time of my own free will, but I had set my will when accepting Christ to obey God. Furthr, I could have turned around at any time (again, an exercise of my will). Why didn't I? I sensed that God was doing something greater than myself; i did not want to interfere.

Regardless of what influences the will, it is still the exercise of man's will that is the deciding factor, is it not?

How does your thoughts on the relationship of desire to will affect the fact that man is still exercising a will?

 

[Forest]

When the Lord deigns to regenerate a person from death in their trespasses and sin, a state in which the desires of the flesh reign supreme, to life in the Lord Jesus, our nature has a new desire, that of obeying and serving God in obedience and love. Our new nature continues to war with our old but it is this dichotomy that develops Christian character and strengthens our faith.

I agree

When we immerse ourself in prayer and in the Word we are continually strengthened and our goal becomes clearer. We desire to please God and we seek that very thing.

So, immersing oneself in prayer and in the Word, changes or strengthens one's desires therefore driving choices.

As for man's will being free, well, it is never truly free. We either submit ourselves as slave to righteousness in faith or we act according to a carnal nature and are slaves to our flesh.

But I thought you were saying that we couldn't submit ourselfs to anything since our choices are controlled by our desires? How can we "submit" when choices are controlled by our greatest desire at the moment?

God bless

 

[awildflowerlady]

I am speaking of the very fictional character found on Star Trek.

 

[Reformationist]

But desire is not synonymous with will.

I am aware of that.

Neither is desire a definer of will, although it certainly can be an influencer.

Well, the purpose of this thread is to determine if that is true. Have you an example of a time when you acted contrary to your greatest desire? If so, why did you do so?

I completely agree about me not doing what God asked at that time of my own free will, but I had set my will when accepting Christ to obey God.

So your desire to obey God superceded your desire to not do what God asked of you? Is that what you're saying?

Furthr, I could have turned around at any time (again, an exercise of my will). Why didn't I? I sensed that God was doing something greater than myself; i did not want to interfere.

So you desired to not interfere more than you desired to turn around again, right?

Regardless of what influences the will, it is still the exercise of man's will that is the deciding factor, is it not?

Deciding factor in what? The will does not act of its own volition. You make a decision based on your desires. Do you disagree? If so, can you provide an example of a time when you made a decision that was not predicated by a desire?

How does your thoughts on the relationship of desire to will affect the fact that man is still exercising a will?

It explains it. As I said, man is a volitional creature. Something motivates him to act and then he does. That motivator is whatsoever he desires most.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I agree

So, immersing oneself in prayer and in the Word, changes or strengthens one's desires therefore driving choices.

Sure. That is why it is so important to nurture the things of God, that they may be foremost in our hearts. If that be the case, temptation to sin exerts much less control over us than it does when we do not feed our spirit with the Word. You ever have a time in your life when you were deeply involved in Christian fellowship, be it through congregation, prayer, or study of the Word? It is in those times that obeying God is much easier. We are more focused on our love for and dependency upon God. However, when we stray we become vulnerable. The love of self begins to take hold and things we would have cast off as sinful before become much more difficult to avoid.

But I thought you were saying that we couldn't submit ourselfs to anything since our choices are controlled by our desires?

We still make choices. What shapes these choices oftentimes is that to which we submit ourselves. If we desire to grow in faith, we pray for it and immerse ourselves in God's revelation. It is through this that we are often equipped to deal with future struggles. Meditating on the Word places our focus on the Lord. It helps us to understand our weaknesses and gives us strength in the face of temptation.

How can we "submit" when choices are controlled by our greatest desire at the moment?

We submit to either our flesh or the Lord because of where our desires lead us. The more time we spend in the Word the more we will desire to obey God. The less time we meditate upon Him and His Word, the less He is at the forefront of our hearts.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I am speaking of the very fictional character found on Star Trek.

Ahh. I see. Sorry, not a Trekky.

God bless

 

[repoland2]

Ahh. I see. Sorry, not a Trekky.

God bless

Such a shame, you're missing out on loads of wisdom my friend

 

[Ainesis]

I am aware of that.

I had a hunch you might be.

Well, the purpose of this thread is to determine if that is true.

Ahhhh! OK.

Have you an example of a time when you acted contrary to your greatest desire? If so, why did you do so?

Well, yes of course! As I stated earlier, there are many times when God asks me to do something that I do not want to do, but I force my will to align with His (many times anyway). Sometimes I am just stiff-necked and refuse to be obedient, but then that is what repentance is about.

Hence my point. If I desire to obey but also desire to have my way (neither am I always perfectly obedient or disobedient), then these competing desires are not determinants of my will; only factors. If they were, then my behavior would be predictable and without variation, wouldn't it?

So your desire to obey God superceded your desire to not do what God asked of you? Is that what you're saying? So you desired to not interfere more than you desired to turn around again, right?

Not really. I don't think it is a greater desire superceding as much as it is a committed denial of the desire that is not in accordance with the will of God.
Consider the following:
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Romans 7:19

Here Paul seems to indicate that his greater desire (as you might say) is to do good, but that desire is not enough to make this a reality in his life. What he doesn't want to do (the lesser desire) is actually what he finds himself doing.

Again, his will is not illustrated here as a prevelance of his most heartfelt desire, but a crucifixion of those desires that are opposed to God.

This seems to me to refute the position that our strongest desire is what determines our will.

Deciding factor in what? The will does not act of its own volition. You make a decision based on your desires. Do you disagree? If so, can you provide an example of a time when you made a decision that was not predicated by a desire?

Yes, I disagree. See example above.

Thanks!

 

[Reformationist]

Well, yes of course! As I stated earlier, there are many times when God asks me to do something that I do not want to do, but I force my will to align with His (many times anyway).

Why do you "force your will to align to His?"

Sometimes I am just stiff-necked and refuse to be obedient, but then that is what repentance is about.

Why do you refuse to obey?

Hence my point. If I desire to obey but also desire to have my way (neither am I always perfectly obedient or disobedient), then these competing desires are not determinants of my will; only factors.

Not at all. I'm not talking about what you believe your greatest desire is when you are not faced with a choice. I'm talking about what shows itself to be your greatest desire when faced with a choice. You are faced with either obeying God or not obeying God. Why do you choose one way or the other? Is your choice arbitrary or is there a reason for the way you choose?

If they were, then my behavior would be predictable and without variation, wouldn't it?

Only if your desires always remained unchanged. They don't. For instance, I smoke. After smoking a cigarette and having my nicotine fix it is rather easy for me to say that I desire to quit. As time passes, however, my desire to quit lessens as my desire for nicotine increases. When my desire for nicotine is greater than my desire to quit, guess what I do? I smoke.

Not really. I don't think it is a greater desire superceding as much as it is a committed denial of the desire that is not in accordance with the will of God.

You have a reason for being committed to denying yourself anything that is not in accordance with the will of God, right? What is it?

Consider the following:

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Romans 7:19

Okay. I am intimately familiar with the battle between the nature of the believer and the sinful flesh he dwells in. This is the dichotomous friction that Paul speaks of in this passage. He knows with his mind that doing the law is good and right yet his flesh pursues sin.

Here Paul seems to indicate that his greater desire (as you might say) is to do good, but that desire is not enough to make this a reality in his life. What he doesn't want to do (the lesser desire) is actually what he finds himself doing.

That isn't what I'm talking about. Paul is expressing his knowledge that the Law of God is good and his desire to obey it. All believers can make that claim. However, when faced with temptation, if our desire to obey God is weaker than our desire to feed our flesh by giving into sin then we will give into sin.

Again, his will is not illustrated here as a prevelance of his most heartfelt desire, but a crucifixion of those desires that are opposed to God.

This seems to me to refute the position that our strongest desire is what determines our will.

I said our strongest desire when we are faced with a choice. For instance, my strongest desire in my family life is to be a godly father. Despite that acknowledgement, I am often ungodly. That is because I often respond according to my flesh. I am faced with the temptation of losing my temper or ignoring my children because I want to do something else and if I desire that more than I desire being godly then I will respond in ungodliness.

Yes, I disagree. See example above.

Sorry Ainesis, your example above clearly shows that you had a desire to obey God. Either your reason for "forcing your will to align with God's will" was because you desired to be obedient to God or there was some other reason for doing so. If there is no reason then your choice was arbitrary and is not applicable because there is no merit to your choice.


God bless

 

[repoland2]

Sorry Ainesis, your example above clearly shows that you had a desire to obey God. Either your reason for "forcing your will to align with God's will" was because you desired to be obedient to God or there was some other reason for doing so. If there is no reason then your choice was arbitrary and is not applicable because there is no merit to your choice.


God bless

I'm afraid I disagree with that. There have been times when I have TRULY wanted to follow God's plan, yet failed due to over riding sin. Sometimes, I just do not have the strength to follow through. I give Him credit because I would like to think that if the WISH to follow God is there, then I am half way to solving the issue, which is BETTER and CLOSER to solving the issue than not even realizing that I have an issue at all.

Knowing is half the battle.

 

[Ainesis]

[/color]Why do you "force your will to align to His?"

Because sometimes I can just be stiff-necked. I know, you just never would have had that impression about me would you?

[/color]Why do you refuse to obey?

Sheer stupidity, if I am being honest. It can be hard to resist the flesh and sometimes denying it is just a struggle, at least it can be for me.

Why do you choose one way or the other? Is your choice arbitrary or is there a reason for the way you choose?

I think the reason for my choice either way is whether or not I am decidcing to do what God wants or what I want.

Only if your desires always remained unchanged. They don't. For instance, I smoke. After smoking a cigarette and having my nicotine fix it is rather easy for me to say that I desire to quit. As time passes, however, my desire to quit lessens as my desire for nicotine increases. When my desire for nicotine is greater than my desire to quit, guess what I do? I smoke.

Or, when you refuse to deny the flesh, you smoke.

You have a reason for being committed to denying yourself anything that is not in accordance with the will of God, right? What is it?

Because I know that in me is no good thing, and that God's ways are perfect and higher than mine. He knows better than I.

Okay. I am intimately familiar with the battle between the nature of the believer and the sinful flesh he dwells in. This is the dichotomous friction that Paul speaks of in this passage. He knows with his mind that doing the law is good and right yet his flesh pursues sin.



That isn't what I'm talking about. Paul is expressing his knowledge that the Law of God is good and his desire to obey it. All believers can make that claim. However, when faced with temptation, if our desire to obey God is weaker than our desire to feed our flesh by giving into sin then we will give into sin.

'

And I believe this is what Paul is saying. However, based on your comments, then Paul is not telling the truth when he says that his desire is really to do what God wants.

Paul says he wants to do what God wants and doesn't want to sin. You seem to be saying, No, Paul must have desired to sin more than obey or he would not have.

It doesn't seem to support your premise.

Also, Paul's cure for this is not to have his desire for God increase, but to be delivered from the will or nature that is against God.

I said our strongest desire when we are faced with a choice. For instance, my strongest desire in my family life is to be a godly father. Despite that acknowledgement, I am often ungodly. That is because I often respond according to my flesh. I am faced with the temptation of losing my temper or ignoring my children because I want to do something else and if I desire that more than I desire being godly then I will respond in ungodliness.

Yes, unless you deny that desire in spite of what you want, which is, I believe, what God would have us to do.

Sorry Ainesis, your example above clearly shows that you had a desire to obey God. Either your reason for "forcing your will to align with God's will" was because you desired to be obedient to God or there was some other reason for doing so. If there is no reason then your choice was arbitrary and is not applicable because there is no merit to your choice.

No, that is not really what I am saying. Yes, I do have a desire to obey God. However, that obedience is not dependent upon me having a desire to obey God more, but on a determination to deny that which is against God.

As such, it is not a matter of what is my greatest desire (for sometimes quite frankly, that is the flesh). But it is a matter of whether I will deny what I want in deference to what God says, whether I want to or not.

 

[Reformationist]

I'm afraid I disagree with that.

There have been times when I have TRULY wanted to follow God's plan, yet failed due to over riding sin.

I don't see what it is I've said that you're disagreeing with. All you're acknowledging is that your desire to do whatever you see as sinful was greater than your desire to obey God, even if you feel that you truly wanted to obey God at that point.

You were kind of general. Maybe I'll have a better understanding of what you are contending if you get more specific. Also, if possible, tell me why you chose to sin when you "truly wanted to follow God's plan."

Sometimes, I just do not have the strength to follow through. I give Him credit because I would like to think that if the WISH to follow God is there, then I am half way to solving the issue, which is BETTER and CLOSER to solving the issue than not even realizing that I have an issue at all.

Knowing is half the battle.

I don't know that I'd say it's "half the battle" but desiring to obey God while knowing you have a proclivity to sin is definitely helpful. One of the points of this thread is to help people realize that though we may desire to obey God, when we sin we show that, at least at that moment, our desire to serve our flesh is stronger than our desire to obey God. This, too, can be very helpful when facing temptation for I doubt any of us truly realize how often we desire to sin.

God bless