An example of how the whole law cannot be practiced today (discussion)

[SabbathBlessings]

The rest are your opinions/bias.

As we can see from this post

Jesus cannot be a sinner for breaking the Sabbath,

Because He never broke the Sabbath- either He broke the law or He didn’t -you can believe His accusers, I believe the very Words of Jesus

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

If Jesus broke the Sabbath- His mission failed and He could not be our Savior to save us from sin Matt 1:21

1 John 3:4 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

1 Peter 2: 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

because He is greater than Sabbath.

Says no scripture- Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, because the Sabbath is the Lords’ Day in His very own Words.

the Sabbath …….My holy day Isaiah 58:13 so Jesus would know how man were to keep the Sabbath since He created it Genesis 2:1-3 and made it for mankind. Gen 1:26

Sabbath was a symbol/reminder for Israel that Christ will give them rest. Of course Christ is not sinner if He does not keep the temporary shadow of Himself, that would be really quite a wild thinking. As He said in another occasion - "I am Lord over Sabbath".

The Sabbath is a memorial to Creation. No other gods can make heaven and earth, only the True God and when we place our trust in the One True God, we will keep His commandments and everything He asks. The Sabbath is a sign between God and His people, it shows we worship the One True God. Eze 20:12, Eze 20:20

There is no scripture that says the Sabbath commandment is a shadow of anything since it continues long after the cross and it points back to Creation- Remember, the Sabbath day Genesis 2:1-3. God giving His people a day of rest and communion will never be a shadow. I can’t help but wonder those who oppose the Sabbath so much, would they really be happy in heaven, where Sabbath worship continues for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23. God loves us so much He would never want to force someone to do something that would make them unhappy, His Judgement will be an act of love.

 

[trophy33]

He never broke the Sabbath

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

Your fears that it would make Jesus a sinner are unsubstantiated. Of course Jesus is greater than Sabbath, because He is God, I am not sure how this can even be a question.

He is over Genesis, Exodus, over the Law, over its ceremonies, He is Lord over anything.

"haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are innocent?"
Mt 12:5
=> breaking the Sabbath did not automatically mean being guilty/sinner. Jesus is more than a temple or priests so He could break the Sabbath and be innocent

 

[HIM]

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

Your fears that it would make Jesus a sinner are unsubstantiated. Of course Jesus is greater than Sabbath, because He is God, I am not sure how this can even be a question.

He is over Genesis, Exodus, over the Law, over its ceremonies, He is Lord over anything.

"haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and yet are innocent?"
Mt 12:5
=> breaking the Sabbath did not automatically mean being guilty/sinner. Jesus is more than a temple or priests so He could break the Sabbath and be innocent

As you know If He actually broke the sabbath as satan's nymphs and the world believe and teach then He would not be taking away the sin of the world and reproving it, he would be adding to it. Doing the work that God does, Healing, taking care of someone in dire need and ministerial work has never been an issue on the Sabbath as Jesus' words attest. Judge not according to the appearance but judge righteous judgment.
And that is a terrible translation of Matt 12:5 but I think that was already known also


John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 

[Leaf473]

In the laws contained in the first 5 books of the bible, it is mentioned at certain intervals that people must be put to death for committing particular sins.

There are also examples of characters in the scripture killing transgressors and God giving the heavenly thumbs up to their actions.

However, whenever people talk about mandatory commandments to follow - stoning people with stones or putting people to death is not regarded as a command.

I think this is an example of how the whole law cannot be practiced today.

However, for discussion kindly advise why that is. Why is mandatory law observance when being preached, is the death penalty associated not also explained as mandatory? This phrasing is part of the commands, so an answer for this has eluded me.

Realizing that the op is almost 2 years old...

The answer I've usually heard given is that instructions to stone certain people are only to be followed under a theocracy.

The word Theocracy doesn't occur in literal translations

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Theocracy

www.biblegateway.com

Where in the scriptures is the theocracy described? When did it start and end? Will it return?

 

[HIM]

Realizing that the op is almost 2 years old...

The answer I've usually heard given is that instructions to stone certain people are only to be followed under a theocracy.

The word Theocracy doesn't occur in literal translations

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Theocracy

www.biblegateway.com

Where in the scriptures is the theocracy described? When did it start and end? Will it return?

Know you not that we are the Temple of God and His Spirit is in us. And it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. For in Him we live move and have our being. For He has given us His Spirit that causes us to walk in His Way. His Law. His Word is in our hearts that we do it. That is the Faith in which we of Christ preach.

 

[Leaf473]

Know you not that we are the Temple of God and His Spirit is in us. And it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. For in Him we live move and have our being. For He has given us His Spirit that causes us to walk in His Way. His Law. His Word is in our hearts that we do it. That is the Faith in which we of Christ preach.

Hi HIM,
Are you saying that the theocracy is around today? That it is us, Christians?

 

[HIM]

Hi HIM,
Are you saying that the theocracy is around today? That it is us, Christians?

The Kingdom of God is at hand, within us as the Word declares. If we are not of this we won't be in the other.

 

[Leaf473]

The Kingdom of God is at hand, within us as the Word declares. If we are not of this we won't be in the other.

So... The theocracy is us? We should be following the instructions for stoning in the church?

 

[HIM]

So... The theocracy is us? We should be following the instructions for stoning in the church?

So you are not a Christian and run around by your own inclination or is it Gid that works in you to will and do His good pleasure? A true theocracy is that which is governed by God. If a Christian we do as he governs us to do through Christ.

 

[Leaf473]

So you are not a Christian...

No, I am a Christian.

...and run around by your own inclination or is it Gid that works in you to will and do His good pleasure?

It is God who works in me, Yes.

A true theocracy is that which is governed by God.

Right, but most people who use the reasoning that stonings are only to be done in a theocracy are referring to some kind of earthly kingdom, I think.

If a Christian we do as he governs us to do through Christ.

Right again. And of those who say that only some of the Old Testament instructions are in effect today, a common line of reasoning is that stonings are only to be done in a theocracy. Do you endorse that line of reasoning?

 

[HIM]

Right again. And of those who say that only some of the Old Testament instructions are in effect today, a common line of reasoning is that stonings are only to be done in a theocracy. Do you endorse that line of reasoning?

I thought you said you were a Christian. A true Theocracy is one ran in and through God. Loophole looking?

 

[Leaf473]

I thought you said you were a Christian.

That's correct, I did

A true Theocracy is one ran in and through God.

Okay...

Loophole looking?

Not that I'm aware of. As I understand the scriptures, the entire law of Moses ended at the cross.

But there are those who believe that some parts of it still remain. Those folks sometimes use the line of reasoning that says: stonings are only to be done under a theocracy, and we are not under a theocracy.

But I think that's different than what you're saying

 

[trophy33]

As you know If He actually broke the sabbath as satan's nymphs and the world believe and teach then He would not be taking away the sin of the world and reproving it, he would be adding to it. Doing the work that God does, Healing, taking care of someone in dire need and ministerial work has never been an issue on the Sabbath as Jesus' words attest. Judge not according to the appearance but judge righteous judgment.
And that is a terrible translation of Matt 12:5 but I think that was already known also


John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

Jesus was breaking the Sabbath, but it was not a sin, because He is greater than Sabbath. Sabbath was just a ceremonial commandment, its not like breaking "do not murder".

If remember correctly, the SDA prophetess Ellen White came with a vision that Sabbath is the most important of all commandments, but its not biblical.

 

[HIM]

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:18

Jesus was breaking the Sabbath, but it was not a sin, because He is greater than Sabbath. Sabbath was just a ceremonial commandment, its not like breaking "do not murder".

If remember correctly, the SDA prophetess Ellen White came with a vision that Sabbath is the most important of all commandments, but its not biblical.

I could care less what Ellen wrote. And Jesus said later in John in respect to the same type of situation, that they were to judge righteous judgement not by appearances.
So their judgment was wrong because they thought that healing was a violation not because Jesus can do as He pleases.


John 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus was breaking the Sabbath and was saying He is equal to God and so Jews wanted to kill Him. Thats what John says. The rest are your opinions/bias.

Jesus cannot be a sinner for breaking the Sabbath, because He is greater than Sabbath.

Sabbath was a symbol/reminder for Israel that Christ will give them rest. Of course Christ is not sinner if He does not keep the temporary shadow of Himself, that would be really quite a wild thinking. As He said in another occasion - "I am Lord over Sabbath".

Do you believe that God caused that there be sin, by mere creation? God did not sin by doing so. He is greater than sin.

 

[trophy33]

Do you believe that God caused that there be sin, by mere creation? God did not sin by doing so. He is greater than sin.

Not sure what you mean by "greater than sin". Sin is not a ceremonial commandment given by God for some purpose, like Sabbath was.

As priests could break it and be innocent, so also Jesus could break it and be innocent.

 

[expos4ever]

Which is not the opposite of what we find in more than a dozen translations that have 1 John 3:4 as "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

This is highly misleading.

If I say "sin is lawlessness", that statement, by itself, gives precisely zero justification to the claim that that "sin is lawlessness with respect to the Law of Moses". This is simply how the logic of the english works.

So while "sin is lawlessness" is not the opposite of "sin is transgression of the Law", the fact that the majority of translations have "sin is lawlessness" (or some variant of that with no specificity to the Law of Moses) indicates that most translators believe either believe no reference to the Law of Moses was intended, or that there is not sufficient reason to believe such a specific reference was intended.

Either way, it is highly misleading to argue that the 1 John 3:4 makes any clear, definitive reference to the Law of Moses.

You can't simply cancel the translation of over a dozen Bibles because you prefer a different wording - that shows a weakness , a "need" for something about the text seen in a dozen translations to "not exist" for your view to survive the details.

Bad reasoning, I simply point out a fact - most translations do not have specificity to the Law of Moses. This contrasts with your entirely unsubstantiated opinion here that I have an a priori bias.

Besides, it is obviously incorrect to characterize me as saying that versions with "Sin is breaking the Law of Moses" do not exist.

I never said anything remotely like that. And I put to you that you are deliberately misrepresenting me.

1 John 2 makes it clear that this is in the context of "His Commandments"
1 John 5:3 says it is more specifically "the Commandments of God"

Again, you cannot possibly not understand that the category "commandments of God" does not necessarily include the Law of Moses. God gives many commandments prior to the giving of the Law and Paul, Jesus, and others gives us commandments that are clearly not part of the Law of Moses.

This "commandments of God" necessarily entails the Law of Moses is used all the time by you guys. And yet you have to know it is a deeply flawed argument.

Quoted by Christ in Matt 19 - exclusively from the "Law of Moses"

I, and others, have many times acknowledged that Jesus does instruct His contemporaries to follow the Law of Moses. But that is hardly an argument for the position that the Law necessarily remains in force after the cross. And there are plenty of Biblical reasons to believe that the Law has indeed come to an end.

 

[BobRyan]

This is highly misleading.

Only in that it is strictly factual and some folks would prefer that this not be the case.

For some people "inconvenient facts" are deemed "misleading" if they go against a personal preference.

If I say "sin is lawlessness", that statement, by itself, gives precisely zero justification to the claim that that "sin is lawlessness with respect to the Law of Moses".

But when you add "the Commandments of God" to your context as we see John doing in 1 John 5:3 that is included with the 1 John 3:4 statement about "sin is transgression of the Law" - then it is highly informative for those whose "preference" is not being opposed.

I prefer the actual facts, context, content.

"sin is lawlessness" is not the opposite of "sin is transgression of the Law", the fact that the majority of translations have "sin is lawlessness" (or some variant of that with no specificity to the Law of Moses) indicates that most translators believe either believe no reference to the Law of Moses was intended

That is an extreme inference you use due to preference while ignoring the fact that this very same author in the same book further qualifies this "Law" term as "Commandments of God" well known to NT readers where they are told "Honor your father and mother' - is the first commandment a promise". Eph 6:2

The point is irrefutable.

No wonder more than a dozen translations render it "sin IS transgression of the LAW".
No wonder Paul reminds us in Rom 3:19-20 that the LAW brings the knowledge of what sin is.
No wonder John writes "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus"

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Faith comes when one accepts the Gospel. The one and only Gospel Gal 1:6-9 that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8 such that the giants of faith in Heb 11 - are all OT saints. IT is not just a NT thing. No wonder the NEW Covenant is OLD Testament Jer 31:31-34

BEFORE Faith comes the person is condemned "under the law".

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:19-20

It seems you have quite a problem dealing with Gal 3:23-25.

Because I quoted it and then explained it for you??

You must leave it immediately

You prefer a "no-context" non-exegesis treatment rather than the consistent teaching on that same point in all of scripture??

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers of your post.

So, lets try again:
"Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law...
So the law was our guardian until Christ came...
Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."
Gal 3:23-25

Gal 3 does NOT say "The Law was our guardian until Christ came" -- are you telling us what you "wish it said"? Is this your example of eisegesis?

Try again - to not change the text.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

The "faith" that comes is faith IN Jesus (vs 26) it is not your suggested "Jesus in Jesus" where you replace "faith" with "Jesus" in your example of eisegesis

 

[trophy33]

Because I quoted it and then explained it for you??

You prefer a "no-context" non-exegesis treatment rather than the consistent teaching on that same point in all of scripture??

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective readers of your post.


Gal 3 does NOT say "The Law was our guardian until Christ came" -- are you telling us what you "wish it said"? Is this your example of eisegesis?

Try again - to not change the text.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

The "faith" that comes is faith IN Jesus (vs 26) it is not your suggested "Jesus in Jesus" where you replace "faith" with "Jesus" in your example of eisegesis

You have concentrated so much on your theatrical "you are changing the Bible" tactics (check for example NIV - the most sold translation) that you did not left much space for dealing with the text itself.