An example of how the whole law cannot be practiced today (discussion)

[SabbathBlessings]

There are important lessons in the Lord's Prayer taught by Jesus

Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


God's will does not change Hebrews 13:8 and His will is the same both in heaven and on earth which of course applies to the holy day of the Lord thy God, His Sabbath day.

Psalms 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.


This is important for those who think they don't have to worry about obeying God's 4th commandment now. We will be worshipping our Lord every Sabbath on the New Earth and God's will does not change.

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”


God bless

 

[Bob S]

Oscarr said: ↑
So, why did Ellen White say that those who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath are not saved?

1. She never said that. In fact she said that the majority of saved saints are in non-Sabbath keeping denominations.

Bob, how could you make such a statement? Have you not read my posts where I have quoted Ellen White on the subject? Why would you hide the fact that she wrote that man cannot be saved it we don't observe the Sabbath? Why would you want to lie about what she wrote?

"But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

"No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God." {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

"All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light."{HS 234.3}

"As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience." {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}
All of the above statements are taken from the writings of Ellen White.

2. How does this relate to this thread (or do you think that SDAs are the only people that keep Sabbath?)

You are the ones with the prophet, that you revere, that have openly said that the rest of us will be lost because we don't keep a day that was given to only one nation on Earth.

 

[Bob S]

I would be more concerned about what the Bible says 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7. Breaking any of God's commandments including the 4th commandment is considered a sin. Does the bible teach that sinners who don't repent from their sins will be saved? True repentance means turning from our sins and with the Holy Spirit we can have victory over sin.

May I remind you that none of the verses you have quoted say anything about the ten commandments? May I remind you that Paul wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 that the ministry of death, the ten commandments) were Israel's temporary guide and now all mankind's guide is the Holy Spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Gentile churches never observed the Saturday Sabbath. They worshiped on Sunday right from the start. Paul and his ministry team went into the Synagogues on Saturdays to preach the Gospel to the Jews.

Perhaps you may have overlooked these verse:

Acts 18:4 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,

God only has one day that is holy to Him according to scripture, Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:10. Does it make sense that only Jews are to keep the holy day of the Lord thy God or that everyone does? Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and the Sabbath is the day we will worship our Lord and Savior on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23. No where does it say only Jews are to keep the Sabbath day holy.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

May I remind you that none of the verses you have quoted say anything about the ten commandments? May I remind you that Paul wrote in 2Cor 3:6-11 that the ministry of death, the ten commandments) were Israel's temporary guide and now all mankind's guide is the Holy Spirit.

Who is the Holy Spirit given to according to Scriptures?

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Bob S]

There are important lessons in the Lord's Prayer taught by Jesus

Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


God's will does not change Hebrews 13:8 and His will is the same both in heaven and on earth which of course applies to the holy day of the Lord thy God, His Sabbath day.

Your saying God's will never changes only proves that that you have not studied your Bible. You are only parroting what your peers have expressed.
9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

11 But Moses sought the favor of the Lord his God. “Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’” 14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

 

[Bob S]

Who is the Holy Spirit given to according to Scriptures?

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

As you can plainly see and comprehend Jesus was referring to Jn15:9-14 as to what His commandments are. He never referred to my commandments as ten commandments however in Jn 15 He does refer to MY COMMANDMENTS as being: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Also, as noted many times in our discussions, 1JN 3:19-24 explains what Jesus commands are. "19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

Notice, if you will, verse 24. There John calls them God's commands. John doesn't go on and give us any other teaching as to keeping days. Wouldn't you think that if the Sabbath were so important, as Ellen has written so much about, John or some other writer in the New Testament would have at least mentioned its importance? According to Ellen White our eternal life hinges on how well we keep the Sabbath command that was given to only one nation on Earth and ended at Calvary where the new set of commands were given to all mankind.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

As you can plainly see and comprehend Jesus was referring to Jn15:9-14 as to what His commandments are. He never referred to my commandments as ten commandments however in Jn 15 He does refer to MY COMMANDMENTS as being: 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

Also, as noted many times in our discussions, 1JN 3:19-24 explains what Jesus commands are. "19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

Notice, if you will, verse 24. There John calls them God's commands. John doesn't go on and give us any other teaching as to keeping days. Wouldn't you think that if the Sabbath were so important, as Ellen has written so much about, John or some other writer in the New Testament would have at least mentioned its importance? According to Ellen White our eternal life hinges on how well we keep the Sabbath command that was given to only one nation on Earth and ended at Calvary where the new set of commands were given to all mankind.

You're welcome to believe what you want and it seems like no amount of scripture is going to change your mind. I do not believe Jesus it at odds with the law of God and we are told Jesus came to magnify God's laws, not destroy. Some warnings too about teaching others to break the least of God's commandments. If disregarding the holy law of God sits right in your conscious than I'll leave that between you and God. God wrote His commandments with His own finger and placed His laws in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of His Temple. God has Temple in Heaven that also has the ark of the covenant. There is no scripture telling us God's holy laws has been deleted. They are now written in the heart in the New Covenant and according to scripture obeying God's laws is how we show our love to God. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6. God gives us free will, so obeying His holy laws I do not consider a burden but a blessing.

Pslams 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What part of the Law became obsolete? According to Scriptures, it was the Priesthood that changed, and the "works of the Law" of forgiveness through this Priesthood became obsolete.

Not the Definition of Sin which required the forgiveness in the first place.

The scripture speaks of it. However, I've noticed if you are not open to the idea, it ceases to become an option for you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Perhaps you may have overlooked these verse:

Acts 18:4 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,

God only has one day that is holy to Him according to scripture, Isaiah 58:13, Exodus 20:10. Does it make sense that only Jews are to keep the holy day of the Lord thy God or that everyone does? Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and the Sabbath is the day we will worship our Lord and Savior on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23. No where does it say only Jews are to keep the Sabbath day holy.

Paul didn't go into the Synagogues on the Sabbath to do personal worship. He went to preach Christ to the Jews. At the Council in Jerusalem the Apostles sent a letter with Paul back to the Gentiles instructing them to do certain things (keep from fornication, eating food dedicated to idols) but did not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Paul didn't go into the Synagogues on the Sabbath to do personal worship. He went to preach Christ to the Jews. At the Council in Jerusalem the Apostles sent a letter with Paul back to the Gentiles instructing them to do certain things (keep from fornication, eating food dedicated to idols) but did not include keeping the Saturday Sabbath.

So you think preaching God's Word is different than worship? According to scripture he preached to both Jews and gentiles. Paul told us what matters is keeping God commandments 1 Cor 7:19 which of course includes the 4th commandment.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So you think preaching God's Word is different than worship? According to scripture he preached to both Jews and gentiles. Paul told us what matters is keeping God commandments 1 Cor 7:19 which of course includes the 4th commandment.

There will be many in Hell who went to Saturday worship. They are there because they put more emphasis on keeping the Law then trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. They forgot that it is the unearned righteousness of Christ that saved them, not the keeping of the Law. The Scripture says that justification does not come through keeping the Law. Justification is a free gift, given by God by His grace as the result of our faith in Christ alone. Observing the Ten Commandments was for the Jews, walking in the Spirit, showing the fruit of repentance through the fruit of the Spirit shown by His power in our lives is for Christian believers.

Ellen White started a religion. The Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost started the true Christian Church. Ellen White was a false prophet who prophesied out of her own head to bolster the religion she started. Therefore nothing she teaches is Biblical or reliable, and many who subscribed and subscribe to her teaching will join her in Hell.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

There will be many in Hell who went to Saturday worship. They are there because they put more emphasis on keeping the Law then trusting in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. They forgot that it is the unearned righteousness of Christ that saved them, not the keeping of the Law. The Scripture says that justification does not come through keeping the Law. Justification is a free gift, given by God by His grace as the result of our faith in Christ alone. Observing the Ten Commandments was for the Jews, walking in the Spirit, showing the fruit of repentance through the fruit of the Spirit shown by His power in our lives is for Christian believers.

Ellen White started a religion. The Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost started the true Christian Church. Ellen White was a false prophet who prophesied out of her own head to bolster the religion she started. Therefore nothing she teaches is Biblical or reliable, and many who subscribed and subscribe to her teaching will join her in Hell.

From the Bible I read only God knows who is going to be saved and who is going to hell. The bible I read also tells us that Gods laws are written on the heart in the New Covenant and we obey, not because it is a commandment, but because of our great love for our Savior and Creator. We do have free will, but if you do not want to worship our Lord and Savior on the Sabbath now why would you suddenly want to on the new earth Isaiah 66:23 because the holy day of the Lord thy God has not and will not ever change.

I know many like to quote Ellen White when they disagree with scripture for some reason. Ellen White did not write the 4th commandment, God did with His own finger. Maybe you can find where there is a commandment to keep holy the first day of the week. Jesus told us to obey commandments over traditions. Matthew 15:3-9 so your argument is not really with Ellen White or anyone on this forum.

God bless.

 

[Soyeong]

The point is, this verse does not say that. However, this is illustrated in another passage. When Jesus said "it is finished" this was used on roman tax receipts when a bill was "paid in full"

I am not denying that Jesus paid the debt, I'm deny that this particular passage talks about that.

Are you saying you think that Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins in regard to the sins that carried the death penalty? In Titus 2:14, it describes what Jesus finished by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but do you think that Jesus gave himself only to redeem from some lawlessness?

 

[Studyman]

The scripture speaks of it. However, I've noticed if you are not open to the idea, it ceases to become an option for you.

To be fair and honest. You asked the question.

"My question however, is when someone is preaching that Christians are obligated to observe the sabbath day (for example), they do not also preach that we must stone with stones anyone who doesn't. The imperative to stone people is part of the commandment, but it is being ignored, so what does this mean?"

I assumed you did this in honesty, looking for answers or at least the perspective of others. So I replied to your question by providing a short study, with Scriptures, and questions to promote further engagement in fulfillment of the question YOU asked. (#91)

And you completely ignored all but the last sentence. You didn't engage in the questions I asked, offer your rebuttal if you disagreed to the statements I made. You didn't even acknowledge the Scriptures I used in the short study. Nothing!!!

It's as if you really didn't honestly care about any answer or discussion of your question at all.

And now I am the one who isn't open "to the idea"?

If you're really only here to promote your own religious franchise, or religious philosophy, own up to it. Honesty is best. Please don't dishonestly hide your agenda by asking questions you have no interest in someone attempting to answer.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Are you saying you think that Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins in regard to the sins that carried the death penalty? In Titus 2:14, it describes what Jesus finished by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, but do you think that Jesus gave himself only to redeem from some lawlessness?

Obviously not.

That's just what I'm talking about sounds like from your logical premise.

Assuredly, what you're talking about may have a similar effect on my perception as well.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If you're really only here to promote your own religious franchise, or religious philosophy, own up to it. Honesty is best. Please don't dishonestly hide your agenda by asking questions you have no interest in someone attempting to answer.

Apologies for the twilight zone moment.

I asked a question to spur a discussion.

My mind moved on from the discussion at hand.

I appreciate your candour. God bless.

 

[Soyeong]

Obviously not.

That's just what I'm talking about sounds like from your logical premise.

Assuredly, what you're talking about may have a similar effect on my perception as well.

If you believe that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, then you should not act like the law still requires us to pay the penalty for our lawlessness.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If you believe that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, then you should not act like the law still requires us to pay the penalty for our lawlessness.

Was illustrating the difference between what Jesus taught versus the old covenant teachings. So it would be the opposite of your perception.

 

[Dkh587]

In the laws contained in the first 5 books of the bible, it is mentioned at certain intervals that people must be put to death for committing particular sins.

There are also examples of characters in the scripture killing transgressors and God giving the heavenly thumbs up to their actions.

However, whenever people talk about mandatory commandments to follow - stoning people with stones or putting people to death is not regarded as a command.

I think this is an example of how the whole law cannot be practiced today.

However, for discussion kindly advise why that is. Why is mandatory law observance when being preached, is the death penalty associated not also explained as mandatory? This phrasing is part of the commands, so an answer for this has eluded me.

Did Jesus obey the law?