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An Empirical Theory Of God (2)
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
I already answered that question. Whereas the Holy Spirit *does not* testify for the genocide claims made by Moses, it does testify for Christ and the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Bible.
If you've ever read a book by Biblical historian like "Honest To Jesus", you'll note that there are "controversies" about which texts may *actually* have come from the lips of Jesus, and I'm well aware of such controversies. Frankly however, I can find no fault in them, and I'm happy to discuss and defend all red letter parts of the Bible. I'll even personally toss in the Gospel of Thomas for you (for the same reason) if that's helpful to you in defining *my* beliefs about God.
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More specifically I believe that the statements in the Gospels that are attributed to Jesus are true because they are completely congruent with *my own* experiences of God during prayer and meditation.
In all these years, God hasn't ever asked me to commit genocide. Many times however God *has* asked me to swallow my pride and ask for forgiveness. God *has* asked me to put love and forgiveness before my selfish desires for revenge on numerous occasions.
In short I can find no fault in the red letter parts of the Bible as it relates to my own experiences of God. For the record, that's pretty much true of the Gospel of Thomas as well, although the last two sayings seem to have been added much later.
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In the case of the Gospel of Thomas I doubt that was the case. I also doubt it was the case for the Gospel of John as well. You're confusing the notion of 'finished Gospels' (as refined works) and various sayings and stories that were probably in circulation all along.
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FYI, we're pushing midnight my time, so I'm off to bed now. Hopefully you'll have posted something interesting for me to respond to in the morning. 
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John Chapter 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Many Mansions
John Chapter 14 : 1
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
John 17 would be another great example of on instance where the statements took place only in the presence of actual first hand Apostles. In fact the whole Gospel of John is *loaded* with long narratives that are associated with Jesus. Only a first hand Apostle would have had the clout within the Early Christian community to attribute such long narratives to Christ and have the works be treated as authentic.
IMO the whole Gospel of John was probably written by the Apostle John himself, with some very small modifications made by his students shortly after his death.
Even the Synoptic Gospels are reported to have been put together based on written previous materials (Q and/or The Gospel of Thomas). There are *many* such parallels.
Mark's Use of the Gospel of Thomas
There is *more* than ample evidence that written materials that were associated with Jesus were likely in circulation *during* his lifetime. Paul even ran around collecting these materials as evidence *against* early Christians. Reading those materials is probably what changed his mind in the first place.
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As a matter of fact, it's *likely* IMO that that The Gospel of Thomas was put together *during* the life of Jesus as "teaching materials' that the Apostles could take with them when they were 'sent out to teach' others about Christ. Surely they would have wanted to have materials they could refer to while they were out 'preaching the good news" to others while out on the road as evangelists.
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I'd need some specific criticisms to work with I suppose. IMO the Gospel of John is probably the *most* reliable of the Gospels and was most likely put together by the Apostle John and/or his first generation students. I doubt it's the quite the same case for the Synoptic Gospels. The Synoptic Gospels come across more like community efforts at putting together full Gospels based on bits of previously circulating materials.
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Do Biblical Scholars agree on anything? I can give you a couple of Biblical Scholars that believe that it was written by the Apostle John as I do. Most scholars seem to assume that the Gospel was put together in "layers", with at least the first layer being based on personal accounts of Jesus. The text I outlined could not have come from anyone *other than* an Apostle since nobody else was present.
The Gospel according to John by D. A. Carson | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble
Jesus and the Gospels: An Introduction and Survey, Second Edition / Edition 2 by Craig L. Blomberg | Hardcover | Barnes & Noble
From my vantage point you seem to be spending an inordinate amount of now time fixated on the *mechanics* of how the book was put together now rather than the contents. Why? You didn't do that with the OT. What's up with the mechanical/historical critique of the NT?
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bhsmte
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Yes, you do have biblical scholars that believe just about anything. Some believe all four gospels were written by the authors stated, some claim they are all historical and some come up with different dates of authorship based on little tid bits that fit an agenda.
Then, you have scholars/historians that believe Jesus never existed, the NT is 100% made up etc. etc..
It should also be noted, that the vast majority of scholars are not exactly unbiased, as they are a high percentage of conservative christian scholars, many of whom earn a paycheck from a theological institution.
That fact is, the consensus amongst scholars, is John was written last amongst the 4 gospels.
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