An Empirical Theory Of God (2)

[Michael]

How is genocide compatible with 'Do not kill'?

 

[madaz]

Michael, I make the assumption for the following reasons.

3. The bible demonstrates your god is not omnibenevolent.

That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.

Michael, would an all-benevolent God give such a command?

FYI, I already answered you. My answer was 'no'.

So without using any further examples of God's malevolence, we are "on the same page" regarding point 3.

 

[Michael]

So without using any further examples of God's malevolence, we are "on the same page" regarding point 3.

Not even close. You're still apparently *interpreting* the Bible quite differently than I am. What makes you believe that Moses was correct in terms of the genocide claim? Didn't one of those commandments clearly state: Do not kill?

I'm finding this one way conversation to be rather pointless. You keep associating the actions of Moses with "my" beliefs about God for some reason, and I still have no idea why.

You might as well be claiming that the Qur'an demonstrates that 'my' God is not all-benevolent. I don't quite grasp how *your* views about the Bible suddenly become *my* beliefs about the Bible and God, anymore than I would understand how your beliefs about any other religious text would reflect on *my* beliefs about God.

 

[madaz]

Not even close. You're still apparently *interpreting* the Bible quite differently than I am. What makes you believe that Moses was correct in terms of the genocide claim? Didn't one of those commandments clearly state: Do not kill?

I'm finding this one way conversation to be rather pointless. You keep associating the actions of Moses with "my" beliefs about God for some reason, and I still have no idea why.

You might as well be claiming that the Qur'an demonstrates that 'my' God is not all-benevolent. I don't quite grasp how *your* views about the Bible suddenly become *my* beliefs about the Bible and God, anymore than I would understand how your beliefs about any other religious text would reflect on *my* beliefs about God.

Forget Moses, forget "your" beliefs, forget the Holy Qur'an, forget other stories in the bible, those things are completely irrelavent to my point.

We are addressing whether God is *all benevolent*.

The crux is - The bible demonstrates your god is not omnibenevolent.

To which you argued that depends on interpretation.

So I used just one of numerous example's of his malevolence to demontrate my point.

The slaughter of the Canaanites.

To which you agreed with me.

Do I need to introduce a few more of his malevolent acts to make my point?

 

[Michael]

Forget Moses,

That's easy enough for me personally since I don't put much stock in the statements of Moses. You however seem convinced that everything he said was true.

forget "your" beliefs,

I can't ignore the fact that *your* beliefs regarding Moses are apparently quite different from mine, mainly because you seem to be stuffing *your* opinions about Moses into *my* beliefs about God.

forget the Holy Qur'an,

I can only do that because you aren't trying to claim *my* beliefs about God are somehow found in the Qur'an. You are however convinced for some reason that Moses has something to do with *my* beliefs about God, so I can't ignore the fact you're claiming something about Moses that I'm not.

forget other stories in the bible,

The only stories from the Bible that might be representative of *my* beliefs about God are related to Jesus. The rest of the characters in that book are of no great interest to me personally. They do however have a very *different* value to you apparently.

those things are completely irrelavent to my point.

We are addressing whether God is *all benevolent*.

The crux is - The bible demonstrates your god is not omnibenevolent.

If they are *irrelevant* to your point, then you can't use such stories to discuss *my* concepts about God. You are however associating such stories with *my* beliefs about God. Why?

To which you argued that depends on interpretation.

It does. Apparently *you* seem to interpret the statements of Moses and various OT characters to be "gospel". I don't. There's an *interpretation* difference between how you personally and I personally interpret the OT.

So I used just one of numerous example's of his malevolence to demontrate my point.

You only demonstrated the malevolence of various *human beings* that are listed in the OT. You've still not shown how these characters are related to *my* beliefs about God. I see now how they are related to *your* beliefs about God, but I still see no connection between the stories of the OT, and *my* beliefs about God. See the problem here?

The slaughter of the Canaanites.

Didn't God supposedly tell Moses "Do not Kill"? Were his actions congruent with the commandments he espoused, or was Moses a blatant hypocrite?

To which you agreed with me.

But I didn't agree with you that such calls for genocide *actually* came from God. You seem to *assume* Moses told the truth. I don't. Now what?

Do I need to introduce a few more of his malevolent acts to make my point?

The only things taught in that particular book that might relate to *my* beliefs about God, come from the lips of Christ. If you're going to demonstrate malevolence, you'll have to demonstrate that the words and/or the actions of *Christ* were malevolent, not Moses.

Why do *you personally* assume that everything Moses said was true? How are you going to address the fact that I personally lack belief that everything Moses said was true when you keep associating malevolence with *my* beliefs about God?

 

[madaz]

That's easy enough for me personally since I don't put much stock in the statements of Moses. You however seem convinced that everything he said was true.

I can't ignore the fact that *your* beliefs regarding Moses are apparently quite different from mine, mainly because you seem to be stuffing *your* opinions about Moses into *my* beliefs about God.

I can only do that because you aren't trying to claim *my* beliefs about God are somehow found in the Qur'an. You are however convinced for some reason that Moses has something to do with *my* beliefs about God, so I can't ignore the fact you're claiming something about Moses that I'm not.

The only stories from the Bible that might be representative of *my* beliefs about God are related to Jesus. The rest of the characters in that book are of no great interest to me personally. They do however have a very *different* value to you apparently.

If they are *irrelevant* to your point, then you can't use such stories to discuss *my* concepts about God. You are however associating such stories with *my* beliefs about God. Why?

It does. Apparently *you* seem to interpret the statements of Moses and various OT characters to be "gospel". I don't. There's an *interpretation* difference between how you personally and I personally interpret the OT.

You only demonstrated the malevolence of various *human beings* that are listed in the OT. You've still not shown how these characters are related to *my* beliefs about God. I see now how they are related to *your* beliefs about God, but I still see no connection between the stories of the OT, and *my* beliefs about God. See the problem here?

Didn't God supposedly tell Moses "Do not Kill"? Were his actions congruent with the commandments he espoused, or was Moses a blatant hypocrite?

But I didn't agree with you that such calls for genocide *actually* came from God. You seem to *assume* Moses told the truth. I don't. Now what?

The only things taught in that particular book that might relate to *my* beliefs about God, come from the lips of Christ. If you're going to demonstrate malevolence, you'll have to demonstrate that the words and/or the actions of *Christ* were malevolent, not Moses.

Why do *you personally* assume that everything Moses said was true? How are you going to address the fact that I personally lack belief that everything Moses said was true when you keep associating malevolence with *my* beliefs about God?

Why do you insist on introducing "Donald Duck" into a discussion about "Mickey Mouse"?

We are talking about God here Michael. God is Jesus, Jesus is God!

 

[Michael]

Why do you insist on introducing "Donald Duck" into a discussion about "Mickey Mouse"?

We are talking about God here Michael. God is Jesus, Jesus is God!

I'm perfectly happy to accept the concept of Jesus being God, but then why do you personally keep talking about Moses rather than the teachings and actions of Jesus?

From my perspective (love of Christ), you might as well be talking about the actions of Muhammad in the Qur'an and trying to claim that they represent *my* beliefs about God.

What do the actions of Moses have to do with *my* beliefs about God?

 

[Sectio Aurea]

Wrong thread sorry

 

[Michael]

Let's try it this way. I have *faith in Christ* and the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Bible. If you wish to discuss these topics, I strongly suggest you start with the red letter parts of the Bible to make your points, otherwise we will likely continue to talk past one another.

The reality is the following: As an atheist, I assume that you personally lack belief that anything Moses said was true. You lack belief in God, therefore you must lack belief that God told Moses to slaughter anyone.

I also lack belief that Moses speaks for God as it relates to every topic under the sun. I put him personally on no pedestal of great importance, or great significance to *my* beliefs.

The reality is that neither one of us trusts the statements of Moses. I do however implicitly and explicitly trust that every statement made by Jesus while on Earth is representative of my beliefs about God.

It therefore makes sense for us to discuss the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Bible, but it makes no sense for either one of us to pretend that either of us trusts the statements of Moses.

Forget Moses. Let's talk about Christ and the teachings of Christ, otherwise we're not even on the same page. You can't 'pretend' that I *trust* Moses anymore than you do. You'll have to stick with the teachings of Jesus as recorded in the Bible if you wish to make any claims about *my* beliefs about God.

 

[bhsmte]

That's easy enough for me personally since I don't put much stock in the statements of Moses. You however seem convinced that everything he said was true.

I can't ignore the fact that *your* beliefs regarding Moses are apparently quite different from mine, mainly because you seem to be stuffing *your* opinions about Moses into *my* beliefs about God.

I can only do that because you aren't trying to claim *my* beliefs about God are somehow found in the Qur'an. You are however convinced for some reason that Moses has something to do with *my* beliefs about God, so I can't ignore the fact you're claiming something about Moses that I'm not.

The only stories from the Bible that might be representative of *my* beliefs about God are related to Jesus. The rest of the characters in that book are of no great interest to me personally. They do however have a very *different* value to you apparently.

If they are *irrelevant* to your point, then you can't use such stories to discuss *my* concepts about God. You are however associating such stories with *my* beliefs about God. Why?

It does. Apparently *you* seem to interpret the statements of Moses and various OT characters to be "gospel". I don't. There's an *interpretation* difference between how you personally and I personally interpret the OT.

You only demonstrated the malevolence of various *human beings* that are listed in the OT. You've still not shown how these characters are related to *my* beliefs about God. I see now how they are related to *your* beliefs about God, but I still see no connection between the stories of the OT, and *my* beliefs about God. See the problem here?

Didn't God supposedly tell Moses "Do not Kill"? Were his actions congruent with the commandments he espoused, or was Moses a blatant hypocrite?

But I didn't agree with you that such calls for genocide *actually* came from God. You seem to *assume* Moses told the truth. I don't. Now what?

The only things taught in that particular book that might relate to *my* beliefs about God, come from the lips of Christ. If you're going to demonstrate malevolence, you'll have to demonstrate that the words and/or the actions of *Christ* were malevolent, not Moses.

Why do *you personally* assume that everything Moses said was true? How are you going to address the fact that I personally lack belief that everything Moses said was true when you keep associating malevolence with *my* beliefs about God?

Michael,

How are you so sure what the bible states came from the lips of Christ is accurate?

 

[Michael]

Michael,

How are you so sure what the bible states came from the lips of Christ is accurate?

In truth I can't be absolutely certain that *every* word is exactly accurate, but......

My personal experiences with God throughout my life are completely congruent with the teaching of Jesus as they're recorded in the Bible. I don't have any conflict with the teachings of Jesus and *my own* experiences with the presence of God.

The same cannot be said of Moses. I don't have a problem with the commandments but I've never for instance been told by God that genocide is either acceptable or spiritually beneficial. I therefore "lack faith" in anything Moses might have to say or do. I certainly take his statements with a grain of salt.

It's not that I actually distrust the accuracy of the accounts, or distrust the actions or the words attributed to Moses or to Jesus, I simply don't trust Moses based upon his behaviors and actions as recorded in the Bible. Genocide is not acceptable to me, and I have no faith that it's acceptable to God either.

 

[bhsmte]

In truth I can't be absolutely certain that *every* word is exactly accurate, but......

My personal experiences with God throughout my life are completely congruent with the teaching of Jesus as they're recorded in the Bible. I don't have any conflict with the teachings of Jesus and *my own* experiences with the presence of God.

The same cannot be said of Moses. I don't have a problem with the commandments but I've never for instance been told by God that genocide is either acceptable or spiritually beneficial. I therefore "lack faith" in anything Moses might have to say or do. I certainly take his statements with a grain of salt.

It's not that I actually distrust the accuracy of the accounts, or distrust the actions or the words attributed to Moses or to Jesus, I simply don't trust Moses based upon his behaviors and actions as recorded in the Bible. Genocide is not acceptable to me, and I have no faith that it's acceptable to God either.

I understand you haven't been told by God that genocide is ok, but have you been told by God that the words and actions attributed to Jesus in the bible are accurate?

 

[Michael]

I understand you haven't been told by God that genocide is ok, but have you been told by God that the words and actions attributed to Jesus in the bible are accurate?

Yes. The *application* of those particular teachings have had a very profound impact on my life over time. The net *effect* in terms of internal happiness, joy and peace has been profound and life changing.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes. The *application* of those particular teachings have had a very profound impact on my life over time. The net *effect* in terms of internal happiness, joy and peace has been profound and life changing.

Good for you. Nothing wrong with someone having faith in their own personal experiences as it applies to them.

 

[madaz]

Michael your insistance on substituting the christian god with "Michael's god" or Moses just screams "smokescreen" diversion tactic and denial.

We already established and agreed upon *which god* concept is at the center of the crux. The Christian God as depicted in the bible remember?

 

[Michael]

Michael your insistance on substituting the christian god with "Michael's god" or Moses just screams "smokescreen" diversion tactic and denial.

Excuse me? Your refusal to treat me as a unique individual with unique beliefs seems like a frustrated diversionary tactic from where I sit. I'm not personally *obligated* to hold certain beliefs that you personally happen to associate with "Christianity", or that you personally approve of. Either deal with me as an *individual*, or don't, but don't get all bent out of shape about the fact that your favorite debate tactic doesn't happen to apply to me personally.

We already established and agreed upon *which god* concept is at the center of the crux. The Christian God as depicted in the bible remember?

"We've" never even agreed that there is a 'which god', vs. "which beliefs' about God we're discussing. Apparently you seem to insist that I personally fit some stereotype that you feel comfortable debating. I'm sorry that I can't accommodate your desire to pigeonhole me like that. I'm sorry, but you simply cannot *stuff* your own beliefs down my throat.

The amusing part from my perspective is that you don't believe Moses either, you just insist that I buy his violent song and dance routine because you've learned to pick Moses apart. What's wrong, you've never figured out a way to pick *Jesus* apart? I can't imagine why not.....

 

[madaz]

Excuse me? Your refusal to treat me as a unique individual with unique beliefs seems like a frustrated diversionary tactic from where I sit. I'm not personally *obligated* to hold certain beliefs that you personally happen to associate with "Christianity", or that you personally approve of. Either deal with me as an *individual*, or don't, but don't get all bent out of shape about the fact that your favorite debate tactic doesn't happen to apply to me personally.



"We've" never even agreed that there is a 'which god', vs. "which beliefs' about God we're discussing. Apparently you seem to insist that I personally fit some stereotype that you feel comfortable debating. I'm sorry that I can't accommodate your desire to pigeonhole me like that. I'm sorry, but you simply cannot *stuff* your own beliefs down my throat.

The amusing part from my perspective is that you don't believe Moses either, you just insist that I buy his violent song and dance routine because you've learned to pick Moses apart. What's wrong, you've never figured out a way to pick *Jesus* apart? I can't imagine why not.....

Michael, you are free to accept and reject parts from the bible to support and suit your own concept of god. I don't deny you that freedom. Keep in mind we are not dealing with yours or my beliefs here nor are we debating the behavior of Michaels god. We are debating the behavior of the Christian god. What Moses said or did is irrelevant and using Moses as your scapegoat is simply a cop out.

 

[Michael]

Michael, you are free to accept and reject parts from the bible to support and suit your own concept of god. I don't deny you that freedom. Keep in mind we are not dealing with yours or my beliefs here nor are we debating the behavior of Michaels god. We are debating the behavior of the Christian god. What Moses said or did is irrelevant and using Moses as your scapegoat is simply a cop out.

I would say the same thing about you. Your fixation on Moses is a bit of a cop out IMO. I claim to be a follower of *Jesus*, not Moses, and all you want to talk about is Moses.

You can define a 'Christian' God just about as many different ways as there are individuals on the planet. Some interpret that book 'literally'. Others interpret it differently.

 

[bhsmte]

I would say the same thing about you. Your fixation on Moses is a bit of a cop out IMO. I claim to be a follower of *Jesus*, not Moses, and all you want to talk about is Moses.

You can define a 'Christian' God just about as many different ways as there are individuals on the planet. Some interpret that book 'literally'. Others interpret it differently.

Michael,

I agree with your last sentence in regards to the variance of definitions that are out there, they are numerous.

Which brings me to my next question:

How many different interpretations and definitions fit into christianity? In other words, what are the fundamental pieces that one must agree on, to be considered christian?

Lastly, what is your definition of what the christian God is?

 

[madaz]

I would say the same thing about you. Your fixation on Moses is a bit of a cop out IMO. I claim to be a follower of *Jesus*, not Moses, and all you want to talk about is Moses. .

I dont want to talk about Moses, I made that explicitly clear to you numerous times. I have even told you to stop bringing Moses into the discussion as Moses is irrelavant. I even told you to forget Moses. You are the one using Moses as your scapegoat. You are bearing false witness against your neighbor by accusing me of doing so. Very dissapointing!

Michael I mistook you as a decent person. If you lie again I will take that as a forfeit.