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Michael please jog my memory and post my quote blaming god, I don't recall blaming it.
The thing is, if you study events like near death experiences, they happen to lots of people, theists and atheists alike, even folks like Carl Jung. Even trained psychologists that have such experiences treat them as 'real' and important experiences, as do the vast majority of those that experience them.
We all get called back to God, sooner or later, almost always leaving grieving loved ones behind. Life itself is a precious gift, but our times in form are *always* of a limited duration. Every moment is precious.
I'm saying that 2000 years ago, a total of maybe only a few thousand people had ever heard of Jesus or his teachings, whereas today he has more than three billion followers. "Religions" change over time, but Christ's teachings are eternal IMO, as is the impact of those teachings.
Today I'm a *Universalist Christian", much like Origen. Like the Christian religion itself, my "Christian/religious" beliefs have actually changed over time, but my love for Jesus has not changed, and his love for us all is eternal.
Michael,
Do you believe in the miracles the bible states Jesus performed such as healing the sick etc..?
Again, the inference that God intervenes in these cases where peoples vitals are not detectable presents a huge issue for me.
I'd have to understand all there was to know about the universe, that particular soul, God's *eternal plan* for that particular soul, etc. I don't profess to personally have those sorts of insights.Why again, would this same God that decides to intervene in these cases, let millions of other people suffer, or have their children suffer, all while they are praying endlessly for God's help.
Let's start simple for a moment. Ever bit, ever second, every *breath* we take is a *precious gift*, and *act of grace*, something none of use deserved, or could begin to explain.Christianity has tried to explain this "cherry picking" by God
If all Christians paid heed to the below then this would indeed be a better world:
Judging God are you?
I'd have to understand all there was to know about the universe, that particular soul, God's *eternal plan* for that particular soul, etc. I don't profess to personally have those sorts of insights.
Let's start simple for a moment. Ever bit, ever second, every *breath* we take is a *precious gift*, and *act of grace*, something none of use deserved, or could begin to explain.
I *trust* that God does understand the *needs of souls* better than I personally could hope to understand from the outside looking in. I can't explain why I was born in the US, in California, to two loving wonderful parents, when some children are born in the middle of a war zone. I can't explain such things, and I could never hope to explain such things except for the fact that war is a form of *insanity* that is perpetrated on humans by other humans. It's *our* choice how we live on our planet. This is clearly *our world* to work with, to create with, to *destroy*, if we're not careful. That much is obvious.
While many atheists assume life inside a physical form is of "utmost importance", most theist's don't see it that way. The sufferings of a single life are indeed sad, but they're part of what defines us, part of what makes us who we are. I can't change my own past, nor would I necessarily be included to try to "make it all perfect" even if I could.
Over the whole of *eternity*, I trust that God's grace *far outweighs* some temporary suffering in human form.
Is that cartoon you posted really God's fault, or the fault of spoiled selfish children?
Unless your god actually exists and planned that suffering, which I do not believe, I see no fault whatsoever in that cartoon I posted.
I am judging what some people apply to God. Also, how the description many give of the God of the bible, can not be reconciled (at least for me) with reality.
I'm not sure why you *assume* that God "plans,
Michael, I make the assumption for the following reasons.I'm not sure why you *assume* that God "plans" suffering, particularly something as 'curable' as hunger.
1. I am led to believe your god is omniscient so he must know of the suffering.
There were beliefs that Jesus was willing to die for, but none that he was apparently willing to kill for. Jesus talked about how God makes the sun shine and the rain fall upon saint and sinner alike. Why would you blame God for *human* greed, selfishness and stupidity?2. I am led to believe your god is omnipotent and omnibenevolent so he must be ignoring the suffering.
That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.3. The bible demonstrates your god is not omnibenevolent.
I'm led to believe that as well, but I'm also led to believe it's rarely a "suffering free" plan as it relates to events on Earth. It certainly wasn't a "suffering free" plan for Jesus. Why should I expect to be 'special'?4. I am led to believe your god has a plan for us.
Thoughts of peace, and not of evil? I suppose then that the evil must come from the selfishness and greed within humanity, not from God.Jeremiah 29:11 - For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
Is suffering from hunger *his* fault, or the fault of human beings? Will this planet sustain and feed everyone on it today if we *shared* as Jesus taught us, yes or no?
There were beliefs that Jesus was willing to die for, but none that he was apparently willing to kill for. Jesus talked about how God makes the sun shine and the rain fall upon saint and sinner alike. Why would you blame God for *human* greed, selfishness and stupidity?
That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.
I'm led to believe that as well, but I'm also led to believe it's rarely a "suffering free" plan as it relates to events on Earth. It certainly wasn't a "suffering free" plan for Jesus. Why should I expect to be 'special'?
Thoughts of peace, and not of evil? I suppose then that the evil must come from the selfishness and greed within humanity, not from God.
Tell me, what is the expected end of God?
If you infer that God intervenes when cases of people with no detectable vital signs are revived, why in the world would he let millions of children suffer a horrible death, or many others he chooses not to revive in similar circumstances?
There is no reasonable way to reconcile this issue, no matter how it is twisted.
Is suffering from hunger *his* fault, or the fault of human beings? Will this planet sustain and feed everyone on it today if we *shared* as Jesus taught us, yes or no?
There were beliefs that Jesus was willing to die for, but none that he was apparently willing to kill for.
Jesus talked about how God makes the sun shine and the rain fall upon saint and sinner alike. Why would you blame God for *human* greed, selfishness and stupidity?
Michael do you really expect me to accept that? Are you suggesting my interpretation is incorrect? I love to be corrected. How about I post fourty or so biblical examples (I have many more) of your god behaving malevolently, and request your personal interpretation point by point so we can see where my interpretation is "incorrect"? What do you say?That depends on how one personally (subjectively) chooses to "interpret" that book.
I'm led to believe that as well, but I'm also led to believe it's rarely a "suffering free" plan as it relates to events on Earth. It certainly wasn't a "suffering free" plan for Jesus. Why should I expect to be 'special'?
Thoughts of peace, and not of evil? I suppose then that the evil must come from the selfishness and greed within humanity, not from God.
Tell me, what is the expected end of God?
So your god apparently ressurects one man to life....
in the (food wasteful nation) of the USA as you inferred,
whilst simultaneously allowing 1,500,000 children to tragically starve to death anually in the poorer nations?
Would it be an exercise in futility for any of these unfortunate parents to pray for their child?
Please explain to me how you reconcile this Michael?
Maybe so Michael, but I really do wonder why he said this?
Matthew 10:34(NIV)
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
This response does not follow or address statement 2 regarding your gods omnipotence and omnibenelovence.
Michael do you really expect me to accept that? Are you suggesting my interpretation is incorrect? I love to be corrected. How about I post fourty or so biblical examples (I have many more) of your god behaving malevolently, and request your personal interpretation point by point so we can see where my interpretation is "incorrect"? What do you say?
Again this response does not follow or address statement 4, tell me Michael, as a christian to an unbeliever, does your god have a plan for us? A simple yes or no will suffice.
God? I lack belief in god(s). That is akin to asking a christian what is the expected end of Cthulhu?
Life is a gift that is given (and eventually taken away) from all of us. What do you mean "one man"?
Is any developed nation a lot less wasteful? I kinda doubt it actually.
Why do we as humans allow that to happen every year when we have such abundant resources to work with, and more food than we can eat?
I realize that you and I do not possess the ability to give life, so the loss of life seems unreasonably tragic to us. However, to a being that can give life as well as take it away, that loss may be no more "tragic" to God than changing one's clothes when they get worn out or dirty. In fact it may be a *loving* act to "call them home" rather than allow them to be abused like that for decades. I suspect the most "tragic" part is how little we do as humans to *fix the problem* and how little compassion we have for each other.
You're welcome to play the role of God by the way, but I'd encourage you to stop assuming that the purpose of life from God's perspective is a cushy life on Earth. That certainly wasn't the case for Jesus. It's rarely the case for anyone over the whole of human lifetime.
I don't assume that God is obligated to answer "yes" to every request by every human in every instance if that's what you're asking.
I reconcile it with the fact that unlike me, God has the ability to give life. Furthermore, life is a *transitory* state by design as far as I can tell. *Nothing* lives forever, not humans, nor any other form of life. I therefore don't assume as you do that *life in form* is the be-all-end-all of existence as you seem to assume.
I suppose he said that because he ultimately brought a sword of truth that has divided humanity since his arrival on the planet. You'll notice however that while there were beliefs and objectives that Jesus was willing to *die for*, there were none that he was willing to kill for. In fact when Peter did try to defend him from execution, Jesus admonished Peter, and healed the guard that Peter had injured. That's not exactly a violent response from a guy that knows that he is about to be put to death.
By the way, you're kinda "cherry picking" there aren't you?
I don't ever recall claiming *ownership* of God, nor do I recall using the term "Omni" in a sentence related to the term "God". These seem to be *your* beliefs/assertions.
You are of course quite welcome to do whatever you like, but there are a few things you'll need to think about in terms of how *I* interpret that book. Jesus is the living "Word of God" IMO. I don't tend to "interpret" the Bible as an 'infallible' document, in fact I consider such an attitude to be a bit like "idol worship". I personally see a *very clear* distinction between the sense of morality that Jesus taught, and the sense of morality that Moses adhered to. Whereas Jesus taught "Love your enemies" and "Do not kill" and personally kept those commandments, Moses did not. You're liable to be extremely disappointed if you expect me to defend the actions of Moses or any other OT character of the Bible for that matter.
A plan for us after we leave Earth? Yes. We are however given the freedom to make choices on Earth. We're here to learn to play nice with each other. Some of us learn that lesson. Some not so much. We're all here for a limited time.
You seem more than happy to play the role the Judge of God by *assuming* that life in physical form should be cushy and happy all the time. You seem more than happy to judge God for not adhering to your sense of morality. I fail to see how that's a productive attitude.
Michael,
I think we all understand why christians want to state "Jesus is the living word of God" and all that,
but there is considerable doubt as to what Jesus said and or what Jesus did, during his time on earth.
You even agree, the bible can't be taken literally, so how do you know what portion of the NT that describes Jesus' words and actions are simply man made for effect and which ones are true?
I agree with Madaz, the story simply can not be reconciled with how God is described by christians and then comparing that to the world we live in.
Could be why there are so many sects of christianity, because believers are desperate to explain away all the obvious contradictions and no one agrees on the explanation.
I don't seem to have much trouble reconciling my "faith" in Christ with the world around me, but I don't start by assuming that the purpose of life is for everyone to 'have fun' all the time, or that good people are immune from physical or emotional discomfort while in form.
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