An attempt to eliminate God.

[BornAgainBrian]

Anything fulfilled no longer needs to be fulfilled. If I have to fulfill the Law, that would mean Jesus failed, which He did not.

 

[Elder 111]

But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)
“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.” (Acts 15:10-11)

“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:30)

You see in Acts 15 that forcing people to live under the burden of the Law is equated with putting God to the test. This passage says that the Law was a burden too great for the Jews to bear. How can Jesus's burden be the same if He said His burden was light?

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Galatians 3:19-25)

This tells the purpose of the Law for us, and also explicitly states that we are no longer under it.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:6)

Can't get much clearer than that.

Indeed! But wait and look just a minute. Not to kill is a burden? Not to steal is a burden? To serve and worship God alone is a burden? NO! NO! NO! NO!!! Indeed not for the faithful worshiper of God. So what is the burden?
What we fail to do is to see that this have nothing to do with the Ten commandments. Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Which is the the ten commandments!

So what do we have? Certainly not the removal of the ten commandments but a refusal to acknowledge that "the law" covers more than the Ten commandments and have various divisions. Acts 15 was not addressing the Ten commandment for those who will be true to passage, that is very clear. Neither was Paul for he said:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[Elder 111]

To make the Law synonymous with God Himself is a grave and idolatrous error.

The Ten Commandments is of and from who? Did some one say anything about worshiping stone or something? Did not Jesus say that we have to keep them? Mat 19:18.
What did God say? Ez 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

 

[Elder 111]

That's the part I never understood. The Bible never gives even a hint that a partial Law is ok. It's all or nothing!

God made it very plain we just would not see!
Look a minute! God gave all the laws to Moses which Moses wrote and gave to the people, Correct? NO! not the ten!
With the Ten commandment God wrote them Himself not Moses. After Moses broke the stones God wrote them Himself the second time. Can we then insist that there is not a difference between the Ten and the other laws? God made sure of that how dare we not acknowledge it!

 

[Elder 111]

Anything fulfilled no longer needs to be fulfilled. If I have to fulfill the Law, that would mean Jesus failed, which He did not.

You have to live a Christlike life before God, by God' grace you fulfill that task by the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that your family and friends do not have to do the same? Jesus did not steal and lie or murder does that mean that you do not have to do the same? What is your answer, we await.
Are you free as a child of God a servant of the Most High, and a disciple of Christ to steal lie and commit adultery? To serve another God and bow down to idols in worship. Those are the tenants of the ten commandments. Are we free to do such as Christians? I want to hear.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

Indeed! But wait and look just a minute. Not to kill is a burden? Not to steal is a burden? To serve and worship God alone is a burden? NO! NO! NO! NO!!! Indeed not for the faithful worshiper of God. So what is the burden?
What we fail to do is to see that this have nothing to do with the Ten commandments. Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Which is the the ten commandments!

So what do we have? Certainly not the removal of the ten commandments but a refusal to acknowledge that "the law" covers more than the Ten commandments and have various divisions. Acts 15 was not addressing the Ten commandment for those who will be true to passage, that is very clear. Neither was Paul for he said:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Christ taught things which overlap some of the Commandments given to the Israelites, sure. So do secular governments. This doesn't mean that Christ or the secular governments require the keeping to the letter of the Commandments given to Moses.

Acts 15 is addressing legalistic Christians demanding that others live under the Law.

The examples you give above very much leave out the Sabbath commandment, very explicitly addressed in Romans 14.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I'm glad to see threads like this.... it shows the true nature of those who promote the Law here and the lengths they will go to pushing the very limits such that only one dot needs to be connected to see that their arguments puts those who break the Law as unsaved (not Christian) which in effect make themselves.... unsaved because nobody truly keeps the Law.

 

[BornAgainBrian]

You have to live a Christlike life before God, by God' grace you fulfill that task by the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that your family and friends do not have to do the same? Jesus did not steal and lie or murder does that mean that you do not have to do the same? What is your answer, we await.
Are you free as a child of God a servant of the Most High, and a disciple of Christ to steal lie and commit adultery? To serve another God and bow down to idols in worship. Those are the tenants of the ten commandments. Are we free to do such as Christians? I want to hear.

I am not free to steal or murder, as I'm guided by the New Testament not to. I am free from the legalism you try to impose, from a mandatory Saturday of no activity, things like that.

If you wish to be under the Law, then by the Law shall you be judged. Read Gal 3, Rom 7, Rom 14... try not to take little verses out of context to impose extra restrictions on people. Do you believe that the Christian freedom spoken of means nothing?

 

[BornAgainBrian]

God made it very plain we just would not see!
Look a minute! God gave all the laws to Moses which Moses wrote and gave to the people, Correct? NO! not the ten!
With the Ten commandment God wrote them Himself not Moses. After Moses broke the stones God wrote them Himself the second time. Can we then insist that there is not a difference between the Ten and the other laws? God made sure of that how dare we not acknowledge it!

Where is this difference made plain? Do you disregard all New Testament teaching regarding the Sabbath then?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Do you believe that the Christian freedom spoken of means nothing?

The Law is slavery, there is no freedom to those who are under its yoke.

 

[Steeno7]

The Ten Commandments is of and from who? Did some one say anything about worshiping stone or something? Did not Jesus say that we have to keep them? Mat 19:18.
What did God say? Ez 22: 26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

Well, of course you are making it synonymous with God Himself. The Law is a revelation of the character of God, and anything that God ordains as an aid to better know Him, He condemns as Idolatry as a substitution for Him.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Well, of course you are making it synonymous with God Himself. The Law is a revelation of the character of God, and anything that God ordains as an aid to better know Him, He condemns as Idolatry as a substitution for Him.

I think Christ is a LOT better revelation of the character of God, and that knowing him makes the Law... superfluous as far as an aid. I believe the Law could be an aid to those who refuse to get to know God (Jesus) to help them refrain from evil by adhering to SOME of the commandments of it as I don't believe all the commandments are useful to unbelievers at all nor do I believe that if one is truly giving their best to live for Christ that the Law but limits their walk as it doesn't go far enough.

 

[Steeno7]

I think Christ is a LOT better revelation of the character of God, and that knowing him makes the Law... superfluous as far as an aid. I believe the Law could be an aid to those who refuse to get to know God (Jesus) to help them refrain from evil by adhering to SOME of the commandments of it as I don't believe all the commandments are useful to unbelievers at all nor do I believe that if one is truly giving their best to live for Christ that the Law but limits their walk as it doesn't go far enough.

Of course He is. I didn't say the law was the only or best revelation of Gods character. Jesus perfectly reveals the character of God and is, in Himself, the culmination of all that the Law pointed to pictorially and custodially.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Of course He is. I didn't say the law was the only or best revelation of Gods character. Jesus perfectly reveals the character of God and is, in Himself, the culmination of all that the Law pointed to pictorially and custodially.

IMO we see those who promote the Law is the character of God making it equal to God such that if one doesn't keep it they are essentially "Godless" I think in reality that intent of the Law is akin to the character than the actual commandments as a lot of them really have very little to do with God himself but are designed to discourage us from being "less God" by sinning. Totally keeping the commandments like a mindless robot won't make you Godly at all in fact some of the most sinful people (David) were seen at times MORE Godly that those who didn't sin like he did at all. I think the character of God is exemplified by the commandment to love your neighbor as it is equated as essentially doing what needs to be done as far as the Law is concerned. In the effort to love your neighbor one is seen as keeping the Law and thus in love we are relating to the character of God... we fail to reach that point by simply NOT doing this and that as a relationship with God is not a defensive but active one we don't try and "not sin" and think we are doing our best instead we try and love and in that we "not sin" less anyway.

To sum it up if we eliminate the central most important commandment to love your neighbor and instead replace it with what it has replaced (the Law, 10 commandments) we are essentially starting down the path to eliminate God because we are essentially obeying God LESS.

 

[Elder 111]

Christ taught things which overlap some of the Commandments given to the Israelites, sure. So do secular governments. This doesn't mean that Christ or the secular governments require the keeping to the letter of the Commandments given to Moses.

Acts 15 is addressing legalistic Christians demanding that others live under the Law.

The examples you give above very much leave out the Sabbath commandment, very explicitly addressed in Romans 14.

Was not that law circumcision Acts 15?

 

[Steeno7]

IMO we see those who promote the Law is the character of God making it equal to God such that if one doesn't keep it they are essentially "Godless" I think in reality that intent of the Law is akin to the character than the actual commandments as a lot of them really have very little to do with God himself but are designed to discourage us from being "less God" by sinning. Totally keeping the commandments like a mindless robot won't make you Godly at all in fact some of the most sinful people (David) were seen at times MORE Godly that those who didn't sin like he did at all. I think the character of God is exemplified by the commandment to love your neighbor as it is equated as essentially doing what needs to be done as far as the Law is concerned. In the effort to love your neighbor one is seen as keeping the Law and thus in love we are relating to the character of God... we fail to reach that point by simply NOT doing this and that as a relationship with God is not a defensive but active one we don't try and "not sin" and think we are doing our best instead we try and love and in that we "not sin" less anyway.

To sum it up if we eliminate the central most important commandment to love your neighbor and instead replace it with what it has replaced (the Law, 10 commandments) we are essentially starting down the path to eliminate God because we are essentially obeying God LESS.

What does any of that have to do with anything I have written???

 

[Elder 111]

I am not free to steal or murder, as I'm guided by the New Testament not to. I am free from the legalism you try to impose, from a mandatory Saturday of no activity, things like that.

If you wish to be under the Law, then by the Law shall you be judged. Read Gal 3, Rom 7, Rom 14... try not to take little verses out of context to impose extra restrictions on people. Do you believe that the Christian freedom spoken of means nothing?

You are not free the break the Ten commandments then. For that which you confess to is of the Ten commandments and of what Jesus stated we should keep in Mat 19:18.
Even at the very end Jesus is still telling us to keep the Ten Commandments. How can we be so deceived? Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[Elder 111]

Where is this difference made plain? Do you disregard all New Testament teaching regarding the Sabbath then?

I am not talking about the Sabbath but the whole of the ten C's. Is the Sabbath the problem for you only?

 

[Elder 111]

The Law is slavery, there is no freedom to those who are under its yoke.

The hallmark of slavery. Why did you not tell God that before He gave it!
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

[Elder 111]

Well, of course you are making it synonymous with God Himself. The Law is a revelation of the character of God, and anything that God ordains as an aid to better know Him, He condemns as Idolatry as a substitution for Him.

How can obeying the law be a substitute for God? If by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit I and you do not steal kill lie or commit adultery we a committing idolatry? Maybe you should review that idea.