An Argument for the Existence of the Christian God

[brightlights]

Alleged indeed. How does one prove such a thing?

By faith...

...meaning: live as though it were true and find out for yourself whether or not it actually is.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

By faith...

...meaning: live as though it were true and find out for yourself whether or not it actually is.

That sounds more like a scientific experiment than an act of faith . What would you expect to happen, if someone lived as though it were true? What changes occur such that we would then be able to identify its truth?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

INSpiritInTruth wrote the above. And he is right. You are blind therefore you can not see the truth. In Isaiah 6, theHebrews turned away from God. So God said to them- You hear but you don't understand, You see but you do not understand. But those verses you would not understand because you are blinded. Therefore it is futile to try to discuss with you.

Then one wonders why you would even bother to post in this thread. Pearls before swine, and all that.

In any case, your condescension and patronisation has been noted. Be thankful your fellow Christians aren't so snide.

 

[trientje]

That sounds more like a scientific experiment than an act of faith . What would you expect to happen, if someone lived as though it were true? What changes occur such that we would then be able to identify its truth?

What changes occur that we would then be able to identify its truth? Simple, read God's word and pray for guidance. Nothing scientific about it.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What changes occur that we would then be able to identify its truth? Simple, read God's word and pray for guidance.

That doesn't answer my question.

 

[brightlights]

That sounds more like a scientific experiment than an act of faith .

It is, in a sense. I wouldn't encourage anyone to "become a Christian" unless they had some real experiences that led them to faith. The significance of the use of the word "faith" here is to communicate that relationship with God (if that's what Christianity actually is) is a relationship of faith. Because it's a real relationship with a real person and not simply a list of truths that we affirm trust and dependence are required. What may start out as experimenting eventually begins to feel like faith (active, dependent trust).

But there is a great amount of room in the Christian life for experimentation. The scriptures implore us to "taste and see that the Lord is good." Sounds like an experiment to me.

What would you expect to happen, if someone lived as though it were true? What changes occur such that we would then be able to identify its truth?

This is hard to answer normatively. I can try to give a brief list of things that wouldn't surprise me if they happened:

1) Since the journey of faith is lived with the community of faith, you might begin to experience a sense of community that is qualitatively different than you have before. Namely, you might observe people being brutally honest about who they really are. You might experience those same people being understood and embraced by the community. Then you might experience those same people slowly changing in character to more resemble the character of Jesus.

2) You might begin to see the world differently. This is something that will come naturally and not something you find yourself forcing yourself to think. You might begin to "see God" where you hadn't before. It's like picking up a sixth sense. Imagine a blind person receiving sight. How can they explain how the world has changed for them? This sixth sense is the ability to sense spiritual reality and we call it "faith".

3) Your desires might begin to change. You might begin to hunger for things that you've never hungered for before. You might begin to dislike things you used to love or put up with.

4) The Bible might start coming alive for you. It may begin to read completely differently for you than it ever has before. It's the same words, but all the sudden the reality they're describing seems real and immediate.

I could list others, but these are a few evidences that I've experienced of what Christians would call "spiritual life".

Hope that helps.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

So those who don't believe in God because he hasn't deigned to reveal himself to them, can't be held to blame for their non belief. What, then, do we make of Hell?

It is not the Lord's desire that any should perish, but that all men would come to repentance.

But the sad truth is very few will come to repentance, and if not for God's mercy none would even be saved. But God knows before hand who will repent, and who will believe on Him when called, and by that foreknowledge God also knows those whom He has chosen to reveal Himself to.

Romans 9:18-23

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It is, in a sense. I wouldn't encourage anyone to "become a Christian" unless they had some real experiences that led them to faith. The significance of the use of the word "faith" here is to communicate that relationship with God (if that's what Christianity actually is) is a relationship of faith. Because it's a real relationship with a real person and not simply a list of truths that we affirm trust and dependence are required. What may start out as experimenting eventually begins to feel like faith (active, dependent trust).

But there is a great amount of room in the Christian life for experimentation. The scriptures implore us to "taste and see that the Lord is good." Sounds like an experiment to me.

Indeed. But, other Christians here mentioned that one can only know God if he deigns to reveal himself - if a person cannot convert until God says otherwise, why not simply live our lives as best we can until God makes a move?

This is hard to answer normatively. I can try to give a brief list of things that wouldn't surprise me if they happened:

1) Since the journey of faith is lived with the community of faith, you might begin to experience a sense of community that is qualitatively different than you have before. Namely, you might observe people being brutally honest about who they really are. You might experience those same people being understood and embraced by the community. Then you might experience those same people slowly changing in character to more resemble the character of Jesus.

2) You might begin to see the world differently. This is something that will come naturally and not something you find yourself forcing yourself to think. You might begin to "see God" where you hadn't before. It's like picking up a sixth sense. Imagine a blind person receiving sight. How can they explain how the world has changed for them? This sixth sense is the ability to sense spiritual reality and we call it "faith".

3) Your desires might begin to change. You might begin to hunger for things that you've never hungered for before. You might begin to dislike things you used to love or put up with.

4) The Bible might start coming alive for you. It may begin to read completely differently for you than it ever has before. It's the same words, but all the sudden the reality they're describing seems real and immediate.

I could list others, but these are a few evidences that I've experienced of what Christians would call "spiritual life".

Hope that helps.

It does, thank you

 

[trientje]

That doesn't answer my question.

It doesn't answer your question because you do not have the means to discern. You see when you accept Jesus as your saviour the Holy Spirit resides in you and he brings about understanding about God's word. That is foreign to you because you reject God.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It is not the Lord's desire that any should perish, but that all men would come to repentance.

But the sad truth is very few will come to repentance, and if not for God's mercy none would even be saved. But God knows before hand who will repent, and who will believe on Him when called, and by that foreknowledge God also knows those whom He has chosen to reveal Himself to.

Then I, the atheist, am among those who God knows won't be saved.

So what's to stop me from going on a rampage, now that I am confident in the knowledge that I am hell-bound, regardless of what I do?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It doesn't answer your question because you do not have the means to discern.

No, it doesn't answer my question because it had no connection.

Q: "What is 1 + 1?"
A: "Tomato"

It's not my inability to understand, it's the irrelevance of your answer.

You see when you accept Jesus as your saviour the Holy Spirit resides in you and he brings about understanding about God's word.

Perhaps, but unless your words will magically change, the point stands. Tomato isn't the answer, and never will be the answer. It's not a matter of interpretation.

That is foreign to you because you reject God.

He is welcome to reveal himself to me. I'm a scientist, I go where the evidence takes me, wherever that might be.

 

[trientje]

Then I, the atheist, am among those who God knows won't be saved.

So what's to stop me from going on a rampage, now that I am confident in the knowledge that I am hell-bound, regardless of what I do?

Then I, the atheist, am among those who God knows won't be saved.

So what's to stop me from going on a rampage, now that I am confident in the knowledge that I am hell-bound, regardless of what I do?

You do not know and we do not know what God knows about who will be saved. You are only hell-bound if you choose to be. Right now you claim to be an atheist, there is nothing stopping you from getting on your knees and dumping your pride and disbelief and asking God to come in to your life.

 

[brightlights]

Indeed. But, other Christians here mentioned that one can only know God if he deigns to reveal himself - if a person cannot convert until God says otherwise, why not simply live our lives as best we can until God makes a move?

Christians believe two things about this:

1) We can only know God if he chooses to reveal himself. This is true of any relationship between persons. You can only know another person if they let you in from the inside.

2) God has revealed himself to us. There are four primary ways he's done this:

a) Through creation -- We seem to have a sense that there is a God and when we experience beauty in life a tendency is provoked to believe in God.

b) Through the book we call "Bible" -- God audibly spoke to people throughout history and they wrote down his words.

c) Through Jesus Christ -- God came to us as a man to fully and finally reveal himself to us.

d) Through his Church -- God is alive today in his people. If you want to meet him, this is one of the best places to begin to interact with him -- in the community of faith.​

So I might suggest to someone who is interested in interacting with God that they might begin to expose themselves to these sources of revelation.

It does, thank you

Good

 

[trientje]

No, it doesn't answer my question because it had no connection.

Q: "What is 1 + 1?"
A: "Tomato"

It's not my inability to understand, it's the irrelevance of your answer.


Perhaps, but unless your words will magically change, the point stands. Tomato isn't the answer, and never will be the answer. It's not a matter of interpretation.




He is welcome to reveal himself to me. I'm a scientist, I go where the evidence takes me, wherever that might be.

You see, you do not understand. You come to God by faith. You approach him. He is God so you approach him. I think you are confused as to who is the supreme God here. It is not you!

 

[trientje]

Then one wonders why you would even bother to post in this thread. Pearls before swine, and all that.

In any case, your condescension and patronisation has been noted. Be thankful your fellow Christians aren't so snide.

My condescension? I'm trying to explain to you about salvation and the word of God. If you want to interpret it as condescension than so be it.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Then I, the atheist, am among those who God knows won't be saved.

So what's to stop me from going on a rampage, now that I am confident in the knowledge that I am hell-bound, regardless of what I do?

If you are confident in the knowledge of hell, then one might also say you would be confident in the knowledge of God. Because you would not have known of hell, or of the judgement thereof except God had revealed it to man through His Word.

And if you are confident by faith of God's wrath on the wicked, then by the same faith one would also be confident of God's grace and mercy on those who repent of evil and sin.

So if you choose not to go on a rampage, then perhaps your fear of God's judgment of eternal damnation on that wicked action was what also kept you from partaking in an evil rampage?

It is written the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge.

Perhaps your even closer to the Truth than you know?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The existance of an invisible God is easy for those whom the Lord has revealed Himself to by way of His Holy Spirit and the revelation of His Son in us. But those who are born of this world cannot receive Him because they cannot see Him, therefore by reason of blindness they do not believe. But we who are born of God do see Him, and also know Him, and also confess that His Word is True.

What would you say to someone of another faith that would say the exact same thing back to you - that you're blind to their god?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

It doesn't answer your question because you do not have the means to discern. You see when you accept Jesus as your saviour the Holy Spirit resides in you and he brings about understanding about God's word. That is foreign to you because you reject God.

Non-believers do not reject the Christian god in the same way you do not reject Vishnu. Surely you can see that?

 

[Gadarene]

You do not know and we do not know what God knows about who will be saved. You are only hell-bound if you choose to be. Right now you claim to be an atheist, there is nothing stopping you from getting on your knees and dumping your pride and disbelief and asking God to come in to your life.

You're assuming we've never tried it.

 

[good brother]

Indeed. But, other Christians here mentioned that one can only know God if he deigns to reveal himself - if a person cannot convert until God says otherwise, why not simply live our lives as best we can until God makes a move?

It's more like this. I wanted to photograph mountain lions in their natural habitat. I could not see them in their natural habitat unless I sought out their natural habitat, so I inquired about joining a hunting party so as I could record the beasts with my camera. Even then, I might not ever see one unless the lion moved to reveal it's location to me and others. But I knew for sure I would never see one if I did not move to a position to see one.

You will never see God if you never seek to see God. Your argument is akin to being in a dark room and complaining about how no light exists, but you have never moved to the switch to turn the light on.

I know that God will be seen by those who wish to see Him. If you have no desire to see God then you will most certainly never see Him. I would encourage you to seek to see God and then see if He does not reveal Himself to you.


In Christ, GB