An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

[Pneuma3]

It still boils down to being freed after hell. The bible never says that---it says the lost will perish.
If you are wrong--which scripturally your theory just plain does not hold water--then you and those who think that, are in for a nasty surprise.

And why would I be in for a nasty surprise as I believe in Jesus Christ who is not only my saviour but the saviour of ALL MEN just as the scriptures proclaim. the ones in for a nasty surprise are the one who teach contrary to what we are commanded to teach for as Paul says they are teaching a doctrine of devils.

 

[Neogaia777]

Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6...

How do we overcome...? (Revelation 2:11) Through "peace", and by dying to to a former unpeaceful self, and being born again new... We overcome death through death or by dying, by way of submission which cause us to die to self... And if we've died in this life, and others have not, it will be awaiting them in the next life, but will pass over or pass by, us who encountered it in the former life... Something to think about...

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

You are willfully missing it. The punishment on Sodom of fire and brimstone ie the 2nd death is our example of what is to occur in the fire and brimstone of the great white throne judgment, not the first death as you have said. And we see Sodom being restored, thus out of the 2nd death comes restoration.

And the reason it is more tolerable for Sodom is because they never had Christ preach to them in their day for if they had they would have repented long ago.

Of whom God gives much to He requires much and if you do not use the talent God has given you it will be taken away which will add to your torment.

The fact that they are still to stand before God on judgement day shows clearly that they have not gone through the 2nd death---seems like it is you that is willfully missing it.

 

[Pneuma3]

The fact that they are still to stand before God on judgement day shows clearly that they have not gone through the 2nd death---seems like it is you that is willfully missing it.

and you are willfully ignoring what the example shows, which is an example of the 2nd death. You just refuse to believe the example set out by scripture.

 

[mmksparbud]

and you are willfully ignoring what the example shows, which is an example of the 2nd death. You just refuse to believe the example set out by scripture.

Yes, no, yes, no , yes, no, yes, no, yes, no----this could go on forever----Time to move on. We will all find out soon enough.

 

[ClementofA]

You wording is weird---endless annihilation??? Don't even know what that is---it is annihilation---that is it. Death. period. What God said at the very beginning.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

(The word "day" in Gen 1 and in Gen 2 are 2 different words. Gen 1 is 24 hours, creation --
Gen 2 is ages.)

To die is one thing. To be dead forever something quite different. Adam won't be dead forever. He will be resurrected from the dead.

He did not say they would be tormented in hell forever---the wages of sin is death---period. For which Jesus paid the price. He did not pay the price for the 2nd death. Something which you totally ignore.

There is no Bible that says Jesus "did not pay the price for the 2nd death". He tasted death for everyone. He is also the Lamb Who takes away their sins.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

The good news is that Jesus died that 1st death and paid the price for us and we can accept it and have eternal life and not die.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

More literal versions say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

 

[ClementofA]

What does it matter? In the end you get out and have eternal life with Jesus--according to you. You teach you can live like the devil and still inherit the kingdom on God.

So you go to hell---big deal--according to you, we will be saved after that anyway.

If you were there now, it would change your attitude & would be a big deal. You wouldn't be saying "big deal". Jesus spoke of "hell" in terms of weeping & gnashing of teeth", not people there partying & saying "big deal". Scripture speaks of torments to/into "the ages of the ages".

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

It still boils down to being freed after hell. The bible never says that---it says the lost will perish.

The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son being "lost" who was later found & alive again from the dead. He perished but he was never annihilated for eternity as in your doctrine.

 

[ClementofA]

If you are wrong--which scripturally your theory just plain does not hold water--then you and those who think that, are in for a nasty surprise.

Where does Scripture say that we are "in for a nasty surprise"?

Did God make you the judge of people's hearts?

 

[mmksparbud]

Where does Scripture say that we are "in for a nasty surprise"?

Did God make you the judge of people's hearts?

Not of anyone's heart--He gave me a brain and the ability to read His word and the Holy Spirit, Internet access to His written word in the original languages along with biblical commentaries----there is a hell, it is not forever, the 2nd death is not one that anyone wakes up from. The nasty surprise is for those who think they have a 2nd chance and find out they do not when it is too late. We are all free to make our own choices. Too sad to make others think they can put off salvation and living for Jesus in this world until after hell---their end will be placed on the head of those that lead them to think that----this is of no further use. I shall need to move on as you and I have both said all there is to say on the subject and it will only be post #145 from how on---getting off this thread. Thank you and God be with you.

 

[HatGuy]

Hi hatguy I actually agree, especially with what I highlighted.
Here is a link if you are interested to see my views on the great white throne judgment and what that judgment is and represents. Hint if is the CROSS

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-great-white-throne.8079354/

Thanks for replying.

Okay, so with the different and valid atonement theories, we can surmise that Jesus 'paying the price' might not be how we typically think of it in our pop-theology.

Then we can't really say that annihilation or endless torment isn't true because Jesus didn't 'pay the price' because he wasn't annihilated or tortured forever. Since how he 'paid the price' might not really mean that He actually went to hell at all.

If we do think that 'paying the price' should include hell, I do think the Christian Universalist who believes in a "rehabilitative" or "restorative" hell sits with a similar problem. If the very last person to come to put their trust in Jesus takes 2,000 years to do so in hell, then Jesus should have spent 2,000 years in hell. Even if (as someone claimed on this thread) that it is an age of 1,000 years, then Jesus should have spent 1,000 years in hell. But He didn't. It appears He spent only a few days there (if He spent any time there at all).

I don't think it's an argument anyone can actually win. I do think the annihilationists have an advantage, however, in that if hell really is 'death' then Jesus conquered it. That would make his resurrection even more remarkable. And it would line up to what the scriptures say about Him defeating death. But, of course, it would be weird to think that Jesus was annihilated and yet came back; I don't see how that works philosophically.

Most of this hell stuff is incredibly difficult to think philosophically. It seems to me the Bible is trying to describe the indescribable, and so it sometimes seems to conflict its wording or say two different things (how can hell me 'utter darkness' and yet have something to do with fire? For instance).

 

[mmksparbud]

This will be my final statement---I've tried to be politically correct but---

The concept that God is so loving that he will not annihilate anyone and so will send many to hell until they agree with Him is what a lot of men consider to be love. They will beat their significant other black and blue and then they claim to love them. Your concept paints a picture of a God that will torment and torture for who knows how long until they finally say "Yes! I love you!"" Shades of the Spanish Inquisition---torture them until they recant and agree to their terms. That y0u call that love is not just ludicrous, but downright obscene. That anyone would rather die, permanently---cease to exist--the to be with God, you may find beyond comprehension ---but Satan would rather do so and His followers also. The thought of living forever with God is sheer torture to them--they love sin. Sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God. That is the bottom line. With Jesus ptot4ecti g us from the pure Light that is His Father---0no one would be able to live. Even the angels require covering cherubs---they filter the light of God from all with their wings. It is a position of highest honor and what Satan, as Lucifer, once was.

Do you really not know what hell is?

Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu_9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Gen_19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Exo_3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo_3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with
fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Only those that have the protection of Jesus can withstand the light of the heavenly Father. And God does not force anyone to do His will. If we choose to be without the protection of Jesus---there is nothing that can protect anyone from the fire light that is God. It is not love to torture anyone into submission. Love means allowing to choose death over life with Him of their own free will. It is not love for anyone to force a another to stay with them out of fear of pain. God spends our entire life calling us into His arms through Jesus---here is no 2nd chance. Believe what you want.

 

[Ripheus27]

If we do think that 'paying the price' should include hell, I do think the Christian Universalist who believes in a "rehabilitative" or "restorative" hell sits with a similar problem. If the very last person to come to put their trust in Jesus takes 2,000 years to do so in hell, then Jesus should have spent 2,000 years in hell. Even if (as someone claimed on this thread) that it is an age of 1,000 years, then Jesus should have spent 1,000 years in hell. But He didn't. It appears He spent only a few days there (if He spent any time there at all).

It's possible that, as of the Son of God/God the Son, any suffering on Christ's part gets multiplied upwards by some relevant factor. Let's say 1 day for a normal person in Hell would reverse-correspond to 1000 days, or 1 year, or whatever, for Christ (every day He is there is like 365 or 1000 days would be for us). So in 3 days (or 1.5 days or whatever) He might suffer more than enough for any given one of us?

 

[HatGuy]

It's possible that, as of the Son of God/God the Son, any suffering on Christ's part gets multiplied upwards by some relevant factor. Let's say 1 day for a normal person in Hell would reverse-correspond to 1000 days, or 1 year, or whatever, for Christ (every day He is there is like 365 or 1000 days would be for us). So in 3 days (or 1.5 days or whatever) He might suffer more than enough for any given one of us?

Possibly, but I do find the notion rather speculative. There's certainly no solid Biblical evidence for such a notion.

I recall that this idea has been used by those who support eternal conscious torment - that simply put, Jesus did not spend forever in hell because, by being divine and infinite, his punishment of a few days counts infinitely more than any other person. But this is all purely speculative and I personally can't find any Biblical reason to hang my hat on that sort of idea.

 

[ClementofA]

The nasty surprise is for those who think they have a 2nd chance and find out they do not when it is too late.

That is contrary to scripture & its teaching of universalism. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk? In your eternal Hitler god theology, not in Truth.

We are all free to make our own choices. Too sad to make others think they can put off salvation and living for Jesus in this world until after hell---their end will be placed on the head of those that lead them to think that----this is of no further use.

First you say we are free to make our own choices. Then you say others "make them think" as if they have no free choice to follow God. Which is it?

If they wanted the truth, then why would they follow a false teaching? Would God lead them into error? No, he wouldn't. So the blame lies on them for their own actions, not anyone teaching a false doctrine. Therefore even if universalism were not the truth it is, it would not be causing anyone to be lost forever. So your argument against it fails.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

The concept that God is so loving that he will not annihilate anyone and so will send many to hell until they agree with Him is what a lot of men consider to be love.

Saving men into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like an endless Hitler-like gas chamber.

They will beat their significant other black and blue and then they claim to love them. Your concept paints a picture of a God that will torment and torture for who knows how long until they finally say "Yes! I love you!""

Suffering is the fate of humanity in this world. God allows it. He allows evil, torments & tortures. Even though He could easily stop it all. Therefore it must be for a good purpose.

In the book of Job the man named Job suffers the loss of his family, wealth & health. We are told that God removed His protection from Job & gave Satan permission to destroy Job's life. Thereafter He restored what Job had lost so that he had even more than before, both spiritually & materially.

Shades of the Spanish Inquisition---torture them until they recant and agree to their terms. That y0u call that love is not just ludicrous, but downright obscene.

Even - if - that were true, it would - still - be infinitely more loving than an endless annihilation Hitler-god. Do you not believe the Scriptures:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Cor.12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

God's anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me." (Is.12:1)

The judgement of God's wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

Hab.1:12b O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

That anyone would rather die, permanently---cease to exist--the to be with God, you may find beyond comprehension ---but Satan would rather do so and His followers also.

Irrelevant. God knows what's best for them, namely being saved & living in endless bliss with Him. So even - if - anyone wished to be annihilated forever, Love would never grant such a wish. That would be unloving. Just as unloving as allowing a spoiled brat child to have her/his way in doing something that would cause his/her irreparable harm or death.

The thought of living forever with God is sheer torture to them--they love sin.

So does everyone until God works in their life.

Sin can not live in the presence of a holy and pure God.

Satan was in the presence of God. Read the book of Job.

And God does not force anyone to do His will.

God is patient. He has all eternity to wait for those in "hell" to repent. There are ages to come in which people can change their mind & turn to Love Omnipotent to receive His salvation in Christ. Until then they'll reap what they've sown. They won't know the peace, love or joy of God. They'll be in torments.

If we choose to be without the protection of Jesus---there is nothing that can protect anyone from the fire light that is God.

Love Omnipotent will protect them. Just as He does now. For in Him we all live & move & have our being.

It is not love to torture anyone into submission.

What would you call what is described in 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20? Or what happened to Job in the book of Job? Or the thorn in the flesh Paul received? Or God's chastenings? Or being given to the tormentors till he pays (Mt.5 & 18)?

Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Mt.5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Mal.3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire, like a launderer's soap.
3 And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Love means allowing to choose death over life with Him of their own free will.

A loving parent doesn't allow their 5 year old child to foolishly choose a path leading to his/her death.

It is not love for anyone to force a another to stay with them out of fear of pain.

But it's okay with you if God coerces people to come to him by the tormenting painful fear of endless extermination out of existence? Is that what motivates endless annihilation believing people like Jehovah's Witnesses & your SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) folks?

The fact is the wicked are already empty & in pain without being in union with their Maker. They are reaping what they've sown. How much more so when the things of this world they loved are removed from them in the afterlife?

God spends our entire life calling us into His arms through Jesus---here is no 2nd chance. Believe what you want.

In light of the above, i'd suggest you spend more time in the Bible & believing what it says instead of "what you want".

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

 

[mmksparbud]

Saving men into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like an endless Hitler-like gas chamber.



Suffering is the fate of humanity in this world. God allows it. He allows evil, torments & tortures. Even though He could easily stop it all. Therefore it must be for a good purpose.

In the book of Job the man named Job suffers the loss of his family, wealth & health. We are told that God removed His protection from Job & gave Satan permission to destroy Job's life. Thereafter He restored what Job had lost so that he had even more than before, both spiritually & materially.



Even - if - that were true, it would - still - be infinitely more loving than an endless annihilation Hitler-god. Do you not believe the Scriptures:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Cor.12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

God's anger being corrective: "Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me." (Is.12:1)

The judgement of God's wrath corrects a sinner for his own good: "Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness." (Micah 7:9)

Even those whom He punished & they have refused to repent God promises to eventually heal & restore: Isa.57:16 For I will not accuse you forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the spirit of man would grow weak before Me, with the breath of those I have made. Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him; I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart. 18 I have seen his ways, but I will heal him; I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners

Hab.1:12b O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

Hosea 6:1 "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.





Irrelevant. God knows what's best for them, namely being saved & living in endless bliss with Him. So even - if - anyone wished to be annihilated forever, Love would never grant such a wish. That would be unloving. Just as unloving as allowing a spoiled brat child to have her/his way in doing something that would cause his/her irreparable harm or death.



So does everyone until God works in their life.



Satan was in the presence of God. Read the book of Job.



God is patient. He has all eternity to wait for those in "hell" to repent. There are ages to come in which people can change their mind & turn to Love Omnipotent to receive His salvation in Christ. Until then they'll reap what they've sown. They won't know the peace, love or joy of God. They'll be in torments.



Love Omnipotent will protect them. Just as He does now. For in Him we all live & move & have our being.



What would you call what is described in 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20? Or what happened to Job in the book of Job? Or the thorn in the flesh Paul received? Or God's chastenings? Or being given to the tormentors till he pays (Mt.5 & 18)?

Mt.18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Mt.5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/why-affirm-belief-in-hell/4967/12

Mal.3:2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He will be like a refiner’s fire, like a launderer's soap.
3 And He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver. Then they will present offerings to the LORD in righteousness

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.



A loving parent doesn't allow their 5 year old child to foolishly choose a path leading to his/her death.



But it's okay with you if God coerces people to come to him by the tormenting painful fear of endless extermination out of existence? Is that what motivates endless annihilation believing people like Jehovah's Witnesses & your SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) folks?

The fact is the wicked are already empty & in pain without being in union with their Maker. They are reaping what they've sown. How much more so when the things of this world they loved are removed from them in the afterlife?



In light of the above, i'd suggest you spend more time in the Bible & believing what it says instead of "what you want".

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment [or annihilation] of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

I will unwatch this thread after this:


This is the typical view of love. Beat them into submission. I have no doubt that if you have children, the home will be fine and happy as long as everyone does what you want. Beating a child until he surrenders his will for fear of pain is what many parents consider to be loving parents. There are parents in jail right now for that. That one couple in the news not too long ago--chained up their kids for years --but they still do not think they did anything wrong---they were doing what was best for them. People of this kind can not comprehend that what they consider to be a happy home, those around them view with hatred and the only thing they are looking forward to is their death---the parents and their own. There is no understanding of love. Or the pain of letting the one you love to do as they wish. If a wife or husband wants to leave them---beat them until they stay -- and then they will be happy. They can not see that the only one that is happy is themselves. That is not love. It is pure and total selfishness. God is willing to suffer the pain of letting a child go their won way and end up ceasing to exist rather than to beat them into a submission that leaves them resentful and full of anger and hatred. He will miss them forever--the pain will be His--not theirs. Self-centered people can not comprehend that kind of love.
Slave owners felt that the blacks were better off as slaves, where they had all their needs taken care of and would whip them skinless for running away until they remained --nice and happy to be there. They felt slaves were ungrateful for their care. That is the kind of God you people want--the plantation owner with a whip to keep His slaves happy.
God is love---self sacrificing love. It is not an attribute--it is what He is. He is not selfish and self centered. He offers eternal life--a life without tears, sorrow, pain, filled with beauty. Anyone can have it, that is why He died for us to be able to have it. He is not selfish enough to force this life on anyone. They must want to be there and be there with Him, not out of fear of being tortured, but out of love for Him. Those who love, will be there---those who do not, simply can not tolerate His presence and can not live in it.
I pray you will one day learn what true, unselfish love really means.

 

[ClementofA]

This is the typical view of love. Beat them into submission.

God's love is demonstrated in Christ's incarnation, life, sufferings & death. That is His sacrificial love for the salvation of all. Then there is His tough love, as in rebukes, chastisement, punishment, wrath, judgement, imprisonment, anger, etc, also always for the good of created beings.

I have no doubt that if you have children, the home will be fine and happy as long as everyone does what you want. Beating a child until he surrenders his will for fear of pain is what many parents consider to be loving parents. There are parents in jail right now for that.

So what are you suggesting? God should be put in jail for removing His protection from Job & allowing Satan to destroy Job's health? Or for fire bombing Sodom? Or sending a flood to drown to world, little children included? Or allowing countless torments & tortures every second of every day of every year?

That one couple in the news not too long ago--chained up their kids for years --but they still do not think they did anything wrong---they were doing what was best for them.

So do you think God is evil for chaining evil spirits unto the day of judgement (Jude 1:6). Or casting beings into the lake of fire where they'll be tormented "to/into the eons of the eons"? Or sending the wicked to Hades where they're being tormented?

Or the pain of letting the one you love to do as they wish.

No one in their right mind wishes to be annihilated forever. The sane wish to live forever in endless blessedness. All of creation, even insects, fight for survival & not to die.

If a wife or husband wants to leave them---beat them until they stay -- and then they will be happy.

You're comparing this with God casting the wicked into Hades & the lake of fire? Or are you suggesting that what God allows, & how He deals with, the church, His bride, is wrong, e.g.:

Heb.12:4 Not yet have you resisted unto blood, struggling against sin, 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as to sons: “My son, do not regard lightly the Lord’s discipline,nor faint being reproved by Him. 6 For the Lord disciplines whom He loves, and He scourges every son whom He receives.a 7 If you endure discipline, God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which they have all become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore indeed, we have had fathers of our flesh, correctors, and we respected them; and shall we not much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and shall live? 10 For truly they were disciplining us for a few days, according to that seeming good to them; but He for our benefitting, in order to share His holiness. 11 And all discipline indeed for those being present, does not seem to be of joy, but of grief; but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those having been trained by it.

God is willing to suffer the pain of letting a child go their won way and end up ceasing to exist rather than to beat them into a submission that leaves them resentful and full of anger and hatred.

Where does Scripture say God will "beat them into a submission"? Would that change their hearts? People's own sins will torment them in "hell". Like they do in this life.

He will miss them forever--the pain will be His--not theirs. Self-centered people can not comprehend that kind of love.

Love Omnipotent has no need to be forever in pain or miss anyone forever. He is quite capable of bringing all to salvation & never giving up on anyone. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk. Neither does the blood of Jesus poured out for all. Nor is the Almighty too weak to save, as if the will & mind of man could overpower & outwit the All Knowing One for all eternity. Saving all into endless bliss is certainly infinitely more loving than annihilating them out of existence forever like your endless Hitler-like gas chamber SDA god. Yet you falsely accuse the Universalist God of the Holy Scriptures of being unloving.

Slave owners felt that the blacks were better off as slaves, where they had all their needs taken care of and would whip them skinless for running away until they remained --nice and happy to be there. They felt slaves were ungrateful for their care. That is the kind of God you people want--the plantation owner with a whip to keep His slaves happy.

Who ever said that God's chastisements, wrath, punishments, etc, will make anyone happy? That would make no sense. But you do seem to have a problem with believing the Scriptures i posted regarding such things. Are all SDA's of the same view as yours? I suggest you check with your leaders to see if they would approve of what you've been posting here.

Have you never read the OT with the lists of curses & blessings? Blessings to those who obey & curses to those who rebel? Or the punishments God brought on Israel time and time again to bring them to repentance & back to Him? My previous post to you was full of Scriptures showing the things God brought on people for their own good, to correct their souls. Are you rejecting Scripture in favor of your own human opinions?

God is love---self sacrificing love. It is not an attribute--it is what He is. He is not selfish and self centered.

Correct.

He offers eternal life--a life without tears, sorrow, pain, filled with beauty. Anyone can have it, that is why He died for us to be able to have it. He is not selfish enough to force this life on anyone.

Why would it be selfish to force something good on someone, as opposed to annihilating them forever out of existence like an endless Hitler like gas chamber? Not that Love Omnipotent needs to force salvation on anyone, since it is impossible anyone would reject Him for eternity. BTW, does your SDA god force the saved to remain in heaven forever & not give them a free will choice to rebel like the angels in heaven did? Does he force & cause those who reject him to be annihilated against their will?

They must want to be there and be there with Him, not out of fear of being tortured, but out of love for Him.

The impression i've gotten from some JW annihilationists is they are motivated by fear of being annihilated forever. Ideally, when people are perfected in love, fear of God's judgement (e.g. hell) is cast out (1 John 4):

God is love, and the one abiding in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 In this, love has been perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment that, just as He is, also are we in this world.

18There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. 19We love because He first loved us.

Please note also that perfect love is referred to in both verses 17 & 18.

If you are still fearing "hell", you have not been "perfected in love" (1 Jn.4:17-19).

V.19 We love because He first loved us. Not because of a make-believe children's bed time horror fantasy about being tortured in fire for eternity.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved?

Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

The Biblical kind of fear of God that a Christian should have is not a tormenting, paralyzing, destructive fear, but a reverential awe & respect:

"Definition: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect." https://biblehub.com/greek/5401.htm

Those who love, will be there---those who do not, simply can not tolerate His presence and can not live in it.

Misbehaving children may find it difficult to be in the presence of their parents. That doesn't lead good parents to throw them out into a dumpster to rot forever.

I pray you will one day learn what true, unselfish love really means.

I pray you will one day accept the Love Omnipotent of the Scriptures instead of the SDA & JW horror flick Hitler god fantasy of him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The pain without death of the Revelation was famine leading to starvation, as in, "men shall seek death but shall not find it". The "locust servants" were Roman soldiers who sieged Jerusalem and Masada and let no food in causing the inhabitants to starve.
As to "eternal conscious torment", there are a lot of differing views on it. The simplest is simply some lake of fire where people flop around screaming for eternity, the more complex views vary.

Good post concerning locusts and famine.

Luke 21:23
"Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress/necessity upon the land and wrath upon this people.

Jesus gives us a hint in Reve 6:6 using the "denarius" and this verse is supposedly designating famine in the siege of 1st century Jerusalem:

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/revelation-9-tormented-5-months-and-scorpions.8072257/

Jeremiah 19:9
And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters,
and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity,
a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes. Indeed, humanity at once shudders and sickens at the narration,

Revelation 9:
5 and it was given to them that they may not kill them, but that they may be tormented five months,
and their torment [is] as the torment of a scorpion, when it may strike a man;
6 And in those days shall men shall be seeking the death, and shall not shall be finding it
and shall be yearning/desiring to be dying and the death fleeing from them.


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