An Adventist view of New Covenant vs Old Covenant

[now faith]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[now faith]

Free indeed.

 

[now faith]

In my opinion the Golden text is Romans chapter 8 verse 1.
I did not post it because we have to understand why by reading the rest of the passage.
I consider The Adventist my Brothers and Sisters in Christ always.
I have learned a lot from their teaching on History and creation, as well old earth.
God Bless You!

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Paul says the lost "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they" by contrast to the saved who are under the new Covenant and so have "the Law of God written on the heart" Heb 8:6-12

Rom 8:4-9
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

That includes the distinct "unit of TEN" where "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 is "Honor your father and mother" Ex 20:12

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

 

[BobRyan]

Now we have clarity, it is not the law of Moses that is honored by Christians.

It is the one that includes "Honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2 - Exodus 20:12 where in that "unit of TEN" it is "the first commandment with a promise"
It is the one that includes all the OT commandments listed in Matt 19 by Christ.

It is the on that includes Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:28 according to Christ in Matt 22

 

[BobRyan]

As far as dietary ordinance that would be a vow or a sin if broken?

In Acts 10 God tells Peter to make a rat/cat/dog/bat sandwich and Peter responds 3 times that those things are not on the menu according to scripture. God says he was just using it as a symbol to tell Peter not to view gentiles as unclean.

Christ did not come and die on the cross so that Christians would eat more rat or cat sandwiches than in the OT. Biology has remained pretty much the same as it was before.

 

[BobRyan]

The Law referring to the Law of Moses, is proprietary to the Children of Isreal before the New Covenant.
The Law is not synonymous with sin,

Even in the NT - "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
"By the Law comes the knowledge of sin" Rom 3:19-20

IN that context we have "These things I write to you that you sin not" 1 John 2:1

James 2:
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law. 12 So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom.

Rom 3:31 "31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law."

 

[now faith]

You cannot serve two masters, you will love the one and hate the other.
Did Christ Bring the Law or did He fullfill the Law?
Are we Save by Grace through Faith, or obedience to the Law?
Honestly I did not read all your statements, because of what Christ Jesus has set me free from.
We have a contextual disagreement that is all.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[now faith]

In Acts 10 God tells Peter to make a rat/cat/dog/bat sandwich and Peter responds 3 times that those things are not on the menu according to scripture. God says he was just using it as a symbol to tell Peter not to view gentiles as unclean.

Christ did not come and die on the cross so that Christians would eat more rat or cat sandwiches than in the OT. Biology has remained pretty much the same as it was before.

What did God say?

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

What commandments were the Gentiles given?
Were they given The Law of Moses?
Of course not, if we still needed the law to be saved Jesus would not have needed to make the ultimate sacrifice for our sin.
What is the point of a new Covenant if we still serve the old one?
Yes the law is written in our hearts that we must not sin against God.
The main difference is we have Christ in us!
The people who were of the law in the Old Testament did not have The indwelling of He the Holy Spirt, they did not have the intercession between the Father God, and Man who is ,was ,and always will be Jesus
A sin offering , is not being cleansed by the Blood of Christ , sealed to the day of redemption.
The law is by Works, we walk by Faith not by sight.
Yes we Sin, when we confess our sin He is just to forgive us.
If we stay in perpetual sin we need to repent and be saved.
we can do nothing by works.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[now faith]

Bob I have the utter most respect for you and the Seventh Day Adventist.
I learn sound Bible principles from your teaching.
As in all religion there are differences.
Seventh Day Adventist are Cessionest, this is a big can of worms I don't want to debate.
I am not a Cessionest,I believe that all God has given us in His Word is as much for today as yesterday.
By this I am speaking about the New Covenant.
You are right the Commandments of God that are given are still in place.
I simply do not Believe we are under the Law of Moses for our Salvation.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[BobRyan]

You cannot serve two masters, you will love the one and hate the other.
Did Christ Bring the Law or did He fullfill the Law?

Not "either-or" - as Christ points out in Matt 5 and Matt 19

Matt 19
but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,

• “You shall not commit murder;
  
• You shall not commit adultery;
  
• You shall not steal;
  
• You shall not give false testimony;
  
• 19 Honor your father and mother;
  
• and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

(Romans 2:13 comes to mind)

Bible details so clear that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations freely admit to the fact that all TEN of the Ten commandments are written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34, Heb 8:6-12

So these Bible texts still matter

As noted here #24 and here #27

 

[BobRyan]

Seventh Day Adventist are Cessionest, this is a big can of worms I don't want to debate.
I am not a Cessionest,I believe that all God has given us in His Word is as much for today as yesterday.
By this I am speaking about the New Covenant.
You are right the Commandments of God that are given are still in place.
I simply do not Believe we are under the Law of Moses for our Salvation.

1. If you mean that SDAs teach that the 1 Cor 12 gifts ceased with the apostles in the first century - then you are mistaken. We teach the Eph 4:4-12 doctrine that they are to continue until the 2nd coming.
2. We affirm the New Covenant as God stated it in Jer 31:31-34 and repeated it again - verbatim in Heb 8:6-12.
3. We agree with Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate - that the moral law of God given to mankind and written on the heart under the New Covenant includes all TEN of the TEN Commandments. And those scholars are correct to point to Eph 6:1-2 as showing that Paul affirmed the TEN.
4. We also agree with them that God did not give the Ten Commandments as a form of works-based-salvation which means it is perfectly consistent with Grace - for Him to write them on the heart under the New Covenant.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
In Acts 10 God tells Peter to make a rat/cat/dog/bat sandwich and Peter responds 3 times that those things are not on the menu according to scripture. God says he was just using it as a symbol to tell Peter not to view gentiles as unclean.

Christ did not come and die on the cross so that Christians would eat more rat or cat sandwiches than in the OT. Biology has remained pretty much the same as it was before.

What did God say?

God said "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine" 2 Tim 3:16

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. So then Peter "explains" the vision 3 times telling us each time it was no about eating rat sandwiches but rather about giving the gospel to gentiles "call no MAN unclean" and not "call no rat sandwich unclean"

What commandments were the Gentiles given?

The "Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"

Which included the TEN - that have "honor your father and mother" as the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2

Were they given The Law of Moses?

Gentiles as specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping in Is 56:6-8
In fact "ALL MANKIND" is obligated as well Is 66:23 - for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down"

Of course not, if we still needed the law to be saved Jesus would not have needed to make the ultimate sacrifice for our sin.

Adam and Eve were the only humans that "still needed the law to be saved" - as sinless beings they could do that - but as fallen sinful humanity we need instead "The Gospel" starting from Adam onward - where the Law of God is "written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-34 under New Covenant.

So then Ex 20:7 "Do not take God's name in vain" -- still applicable to the saints, still defines what sin "is" 1 John 3:4 - still written on the heart under the New Covenant

And "this" Bible detail is so clear and easy to see that Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost all Christian denominations freely admit to them.

 

[now faith]

1. If you mean that SDAs teach that the 1 Cor 12 gifts ceased with the apostles in the first century - then you are mistaken. We teach the Eph 4:4-12 doctrine that they are to continue until the 2nd coming.
2. We affirm the New Covenant as God stated it in Jer 31:31-34 and repeated it again - verbatim in Heb 8:6-12.
3. We agree with Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate - that the moral law of God given to mankind and written on the heart under the New Covenant includes all TEN of the TEN Commandments. And those scholars are correct to point to Eph 6:1-2 as showing that Paul affirmed the TEN.
4. We also agree with them that God did not give the Ten Commandments as a form of works-based-salvation which means it is perfectly consistent with Grace - for Him to write them on the heart under the New Covenant.

 

[now faith]

Rob thank you.
I was wrong on the Seventh Day Adventist being Cessionest.
I do believe in Gods moral law as well.
The Old Testament shows us Christ throughout.
I believe that Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses for our Salvation.
Gods Covenant with Abraham as well has come.

 

[BobRyan]

Rob thank you.
I was wrong on the Seventh Day Adventist being Cessionest.
I do believe in Gods moral law as well.
The Old Testament shows us Christ throughout.
I believe that Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses for our Salvation.
Gods Covenant with Abraham as well has come.

Christ lived a perfectly sinless life and was born without any defects of character, no bent toward sin, no moral corruption in his nature , so no need for Christ to "have a Savior" rather He IS the Savior.

Those terms are what many refer to as "a sinful nature" and Christ did not have that. By contrast we not only have a sinful nature (for which we need a Savior) but we also have the fact that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Rom 3:23.

So while it is true - as you say - Christ perfectly complied with commands of God such as "do not take God's name in vain" - yet it is also true that if we should take God's name in vain it would still be "sin" for which we must confess and repent and receive forgiveness 1 John 2:1 from our "Advocate with the Father" - our High Priest in the sanctuary of heaven (Heb 8:1-5) which Paul says "is the main point" - Heb 8:1.

In Rom 8:4-11 Paul says the saints experience obedience to the Word of God whereas the lost "do not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

As you point out the OT and NT reveal Christ. In fact in Heb 8:6-12 we are told that it is Christ speaking at Sinai giving the Ten Commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

And while we are on the topic of Spiritual Gifts - here is a Christian Video about two Muslims in darkness of the night of error that encounter Christ and become Christians -

Must See Amazing Story! Saved from homosexuality, drugs, suicide, demon worship, and a muslim faith.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The SDA view of the covenants follows the traditional Catholic,Orthodox,Protestant view of Covenants. Namely that covenants once they are established continue until they are completed. Covenants can run at the same time. A later covenant does not annul a prior covenants. The conclusion that the Sabbath is still valid is the natural outgrowth of this view. If a covenant was established at creation then that covenant is still valid.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA view of the covenants follows the traditional Catholic,Orthodox,Protestant view of Covenants. Namely that covenants once they are established continue until they are completed. Covenants can run at the same time. A later covenant does not annul a prior covenants. The conclusion that the Sabbath is still valid is the natural outgrowth of this view. If a covenant was established at creation then that covenant is still valid.

The Old Covenant "Obey and Live" was the rule for the Angels, the rule for Adam and Eve and as Rom 3:19-20, and Gal 3 point out. All are under the law of God and all are condemned as sinners - as failing under the Old Covenant. So that means all need the New Covenant "Gospel" - all need to exit the Old Covenant lost state of "Obey and live" since all have sinned.

Heb 9:15 Christ's death on the cross provides forgiveness of sin.. of what sins? of "the sins committed under the first covenant" which is all of them. We are all condemned under the "obey and live" contract and we are all saved under the Gal 1:6-9 "one Gospel" that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

 

[Adventist Heretic]

The Old Covenant "Obey and Live" was the rule for the Angels, the rule for Adam and Eve and as Rom 3:19-20, and Gal 3 point out. All are under the law of God and all are condemned as sinners - as failing under the Old Covenant. So that means all need the New Covenant "Gospel" - all need to exit the Old Covenant lost state of "Obey and live" since all have sinned.

Heb 9:15 Christ's death on the cross provides forgiveness of sin.. of what sins? of "the sins committed under the first covenant" which is all of them. We are all condemned under the "obey and live" contract and we are all saved under the Gal 1:6-9 "one Gospel" that was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

i am not sure what the connection is here my post