amillennialism?

[inhisdebt]

Actually, there is nothing ther that indicates that this speaks of a literal, future kingdom on earth.

As I think I said earlier, John, before he began the apocalypse itself, told us that Jesus is reigning over all the kings of the earth now . . as of 1900 years ago.

Additionally, this is apocalyptic language, which by its very nature is highly symbolic.

When interpreting a writing in the bible, one must take into accout its genre. While it is to be expected that most of what is written in a book of scripture that is historical in nature can be understood literally, one cannot take the same approach (ie one that is appropriate with writings in the historical genre) and apply it to writings in the apocalyptic genre, or one ends up with erroneous results. That is because writings of the apocalytpic genre are HIGHLY symbolic.


If this fact is ignored, then one can easily fall into the mistake of reading something as literal that is actually symbolic.


Peace

I would disagree, the (we shall reign on earth) is as literal as it gets. Without a standard basis of literal translation it would be impossible to support any doctrine with that thinking, no scripture would be safe for literal understanding or natural interpritation. No thanks ill stick with premillinial as the scripture supports it literaly . There is room for aligorical interpritation in scripture but it is obviose, G-d did not write all of this to be secretive he wanted us to be able to plainly understand his word through prayer and study. Not our own creative imaginations. In the end the whips were real, as were the thorns, and the nails. So i would expect his crown and his reign to be real as well.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Another important question to ask ourselves is..

WHY IS AMILLENNIALISM..?

What I mean is.. where did it come from and why ?

It's generally thought to be the product of Augustine, who read Revelation chapter 20 in a 'past or present' tense, rather than from a 'futuristic' perspective.

If it is generally thought to be, then this is true only is some circles and this understanding is not accurate. It is not a product of Augustine as if it originated with him. It was already believed.

So it basically comes down to how one reads the Revelation of Jesus Christ, specifically chapter 20.

I would say it should be more than about how we read a book of the bible. We should look to what the Christians from the Early Church beleived and how they dealt with various interpretations. Once the persecutions were over, they were more able to focus on eschatology and they rejected premillenialism.

Many in Christendom believe that Rev 20 is going on right now, ie, that we are currently within the thousand year reign of Christ, hence the name amillennialism.. ie, they reject a 'future' thousand year reign, whereas others believe it to be pertaining to the things 'which shall be hereafter' as mentioned in Rev 1:19.

In my estimation, it's future. Revelation 19 speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ coming with His saints (certainly in the future), and taking the beast and the false prophet at that time.. and Revelation 20 is linked with chapter 19 in that it speaks of the beast and false prophet already in the lake of fire.. they were cast there in Revelation 19 when the Lord came.. so do the math..

When reading Revelation it is important to understand that it is a record of events in the order John SAW them.

That does not mean he was shone them in actual chronological order.

If one makes the assumption that the order in which he was shown events is the actual order in which they happened or will happen, one is making an assumption one cannot prove but which drives all one's interpretation of the Revelation of John.

IF that assumption is erroneous, one's conclusions will also be erroneous.


The Book of the Revelation of John, or the Book of the Apocalypse, is a book of the apocalyptic genre. Writings of the apocalyptic genre do not give us everything in sequential order of occurance, but only the order the visions were given to the prophet. These can skip around from present to past to future in regards to the actual timeof their occurance.


So I don't see your argument as being valid.



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

I would disagree, the (we shall reign on earth) is as literal as it gets.

I understand you disagree, and I understand why, very, very well. I was dispenationalist/premillenialist for 30 years. It took a lot for me to see the errors of a belief system that mandated I understood such passages in Revelation literally.

Without a standard basis of literal translation it would be impossible to support any doctrine with that thinking, no scripture would be safe for literal understanding or natural interpritation.

Not at all. There is no such thing as a standard basis of literal interpretation (we are not translating, we are interpreting, so I think that is the word you meant).

If there were, we would have to take Jesus' words literally when He said to cut off our hands and feet if they offend us, or pluck out our eyes if they offend us. I don't see a lot of Chrisitans walking around with their eyes plucked out or their hands and feet cut off.

This is because the ancient languages are full of figures of speach, idioms, symbolisms. And this is true in the more literal genres such as gospel, historical (Acts) and Epistle.

And when we get to the apocalyptic genre, then we are dealing with HIGHLY symbolic works. One cannot apply any type of "literal" standard to reading a work in the apocalyptic genre.

One makes a serious error if they approach the apocalyptic genre the same way the approach the gospel genre, or the historical genre, or the epistle genre.

No thanks ill stick with premillinial as the scripture supports it literaly .

Of course, you are free to believe what you will. But there is no such thing as 'premilleial as scripture supports it literally.' It is a fabrication.

There is room for aligorical interpritation in scripture but it is obviose, G-d did not write all of this to be secretive he wanted us to be able to plainly understand his word through prayer and study.

There is no justification for such a position.

Not our own creative imaginations. In the end the whips were real, as were the thorns, and the nails. So i would expect his crown and his reign to be real as well.

What you expect is what you expect. However, there is no warrant for believing in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. The only way one can arrive at such a belief is to take something found in HIGHLY symbolic book, which is never spoken of in any other book of the bible, and force a literal interpretation on it .. ie the 1000 years in Rev 20.

This is a highly dubious position to be in. Usually the call will be for 2 or 3 scriptures supporting the same thing before it will be believed. Yet there is not one other scripture in all the bible that supports the idea that the Messiah will reign on earth for a thousand years. Not one.

It would be helpful if we could find just one instance of the phrase "a thousand years" being used in any literal sense, to refer to aliteral amount of time.

But we can't even find that!


But we do see this. Everywhere else where the phrase "a thousand years" is found in the scripture, it is always used FIGURATIVELY, NOT literally.


If I could be shonw just one place, other than a passage from the most highly symbolic book of the bible, where it speaks of a literal 1000 year reign of the Messiah on earth, then I would give the argument and beleif you espouse some credence.

But there is none. There is no other witness in all scripture that agrees with such a literal interpretation of the 1000 year period in Rev 20.



Peace

 

[thereselittleflower]

inhisdebt,

I demonstrated for you that the promises of God to Abraham regarding the land have all been fulfilled.

Since they have been fulfilled, there is no future fulfillment mandated, and beliefs based on such a future fulfillment are not based on scripture.

Would you like to discuss this further?

The belief in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is in part based on the belief this promise to Abraham has not been fufliflled and has a future fulfillment.

Since that is not the case, ie it was fulfilled in the past, this leg supporting a belief in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ is removed . . . The only leg left is a belief that it must refer to a literal 1000 year period, but as I responed above, there is nothing to substantiate such a belief.

With these two legs gone, there is nothing to support a belief in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.


Peace

 

[ETide]

I don't see your argument as being valid. Peace

No argument here. You're obviously free to embrace whatever it is that you embrace.

As for the beast and false prophet being taken and cast into the lake of fire by the Lord when He comes with His saints (as described in Revelation 19) and then John writing of their being in the lake of fire in Revelation 20, it seems a little strange to me that folks would suggest that this is happening now, or that it has already happened.. as if to suggest that the Lord has already come with His saints..and placed them there...

But that's just me.. and as mentioned.. you're perfectly free to embrace whatever it is that you embrace.

Just sharing my thoughts on the matter, as others do.

There is certainly peace in our Lord Jesus Christ, amen to that !

 

[ETide]

Revelation 19 does indeed speak of our Lord Jesus Christ coming with His saints.. and taking the beast and the false prophet at that time.. that's pretty clear in my estimation.

So then, that obviously implies that the beast and the false prophet pertain to the future.

Unless of course one believes that Revelation 19 describes a past event..

2 Thess 2 (as well as a few other places in scripture) also describes His coming.. in that case as the Day of the Lord, or the Day of Christ.. in that portion.. He is said to destroy the man of sin with the brightness of His coming..

Interesting isn't it.. ?

Do you believe that they're describing the same event.. ie His coming.. but with a different angle, or degree of detail..?

 

[inhisdebt]

inhisdebt,

I demonstrated for you that the promises of God to Abraham regarding the land have all been fulfilled.

Since they have been fulfilled, there is no future fulfillment mandated, and beliefs based on such a future fulfillment are not based on scripture.

Would you like to discuss this further?

The belief in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is in part based on the belief this promise to Abraham has not been fufliflled and has a future fulfillment.

Since that is not the case, ie it was fulfilled in the past, this leg supporting a belief in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ is removed . . . The only leg left is a belief that it must refer to a literal 1000 year period, but as I responed above, there is nothing to substantiate such a belief.

With these two legs gone, there is nothing to support a belief in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.


Peace

You have not shown proof to support your position you have simply shown why you disbelieve the scriptures as they are plainly stated.That is your choice. To say that there are no other scriptures to support the millinial reign is just plain false. there are many other scriptures such as this one that insinuates just that, while not as plainly spoken as it is in rev, 7 months of burials after the battle of Gog and magog clearly insinuates that life on earth goes on after that battle and into the millinium.Though if you choose not to believe what was plainly spoken of in rev then i doubt you will accept this either.
There is other scripture that indicates that jerusalam will exist as a town without walls previos to this battle and will live in peace up and to that time. Yet jerusalam is not living in peace neither has it in history, and is still surrounded by walls for there protection to this day and they are building new ones.

Ezekial 396 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. (Clearly this has not happened yet)
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. (why cleanse the land just to send it to place it in the lake of fire right away)

Not to mention the lords prayer remember," thy kingdom come thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".to assume that God will not physically establish his kingdom on earth sells short the promises of G-d. The times of refreshing as spoken of in the old testiment shows the refreshing of the earth as well as the redemption of G-ds peaple with the return of the lord am i to believe all that is alligorical as well


zech14v1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

There are simply hundreds of scriptures that implicate life on earth with christ after the day of the lord. Your position is attractive but unsupportable through scripture. One must remember we search the scriptures not to support our ideals but to seek and find what God has to say on the subject, All the scripture must fit.

l
l

 

[MattHenry]

Copied with permission of Ellis Skolfield.

JEAN DE LABIDE

Since part of the 20th Chapter of Revelation appears to be literal, a Dutch Reformed theologian, Jean de Labadie, concluded back in 1640 that Jesus would return to rule over the earthly kingdoms of men for 1000 years at the end of the Christian Era. This "millennium," as it is now called, was then to be followed by another Armageddon, Rev 20:8, after which we would have the great white throne, and eventually the saints would enter into the Eternal Kingdom of God. Jean de Labadie's millennial theory fit perfectly with the Lacunza, Darby, Macdonald, Scofield pre-trib rapture scheme of things, so the Dispensationals added pre-millennialism to their body of doctrine. However, the Church of de Labadie's own day considered his view heretical and the Dutch brethren tossed de Labadie out of the church. Here is why:

Rev 20:2 is the only supposed support for the pre-millennial view in the whole Bible, and it only works then if you interpret ONLY ONE verse literally in a book most serious eschatologists understand to be primarily figurative. Even to arrive at that view, de Labadie had to ignore two universally accepted rules of Bible interpretation:

1. No scripture should be interpreted apart from its context. As already stated, most of Revelation is figurative and there is no textual reason to believe that Rev 20 should be interpreted differently than its context.

2. A word study should be done in the original language to be sure that the passage is correctly understood. The Greek word translated "thousand" in Rev 20:2 (and throughout the rest of chapter), is chilioi (Strong's No. 5507). Chilioi is an indefinite plural, and may not mean just one thousand. It could mean one thousand, but it could also mean many thousands.

INDEFINITE PLURAL

That is the point, chilioi is an indefinite plural. It seems Pre-millennialists base one of their definite doctrines on a very indefinite plural. Even though the translation of chilioi as one thousand is technically correct, if we insist on it meaning only 1000 years, then the sense of the passage could be lost.

A figurative interpretation of Rev 20 is not as wild as one might think. Most of the Church considered Rev 20 to be figurative until de Labadie came along. Since it is scripturally provable that the saints reign with Christ, in His spiritual kingdom right this instant, and that we have done so throughout the Christian Era (Eph 1:3, 1Pe 2:9, Rev 1:6, Rev 5:10), then this "thousand" year reign of Christ could be a pictorial representation of the whole Christian Era.

RULING WITH THE LORD

Besides the last trumpet itself, there are other verses that call the premillennial view into question. According to premillennialism, when Jesus returns for His 1000-year reign, He will rule from Jerusalem in all His power and glory. During that 1000 years, we (the saints) are presumed to be ruling with Him in our new glorified and sinless bodies. At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is somehow supposed to deceive the rulers (now sinless us) for a short season. If that were to happen we would again be in sin, which would result in our again being separated from the Lord. That is contrary to 1TH 4:17, which clearly states:

1TH 4:17 "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up...to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall ever be with the Lord." Saints will never again be separated from the Lord!

WHO'S THE STRONG MAN ?

MAT 12:29 "How can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless He first binds the strong man?"

When Jesus asked that question, He was in the act of casting out demons. The Lord was plundering Satan's house then, and He is still doing so today through the church. Now Jesus permitted Himself to be bound once, at the Cross, but it will never happen again. When Jesus returns to Jerusalem, He will be ruling in all His power and glory. It will be Jesus' kingdom. He will be the "strong man"! Released or not, Satan could only plunder Jesus' kingdom if he could again bind Jesus. Laughable. Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God the Father. He is King of kings and Lord of lords, forever!

Eph 1:20-21 declares, "...when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come." That age to come would have to include any future time that Jesus is on Earth, and beyond. No future time of lost power for the Lord. When the Lord returns at the end of this age, He will rule absolutely...and eternally!


IT'S ABOUT DOMAIN

God gave the Earth to Adam. Adam was made the ruler of the Earth and all that it contained (Gen 1:28). When Adam fell, he delivered his God-given authority into Satan's hands (Luk 4:6). All mankind then became Satan's legal possession. When scripture says "we were bought with a price," that was not just some theoretical acquisition. We were purchased from Satan's kingdom by Jesus' precious blood. When we accept Jesus as our personal Savior, by a sovereign act, God the Father transfers us "out of the domain (kingdom, NASB) of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Col 1:13). If you are looking for the kingdom age, there it is, right where the Bible has been saying it was all along. The kingdom of the Lord Jesus has existed ever since Act 2:33-36.

At the end of this age, Jesus will indeed return to Earth with His Holy angels and all His "holy ones" (all in their glorified bodies). That's us, with all the saints who have gone before us, all of whom who went to be with Him at the last trumpet (1Co 15:52).

Rev 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded (the last trumpet) and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.' " Not for just for 1000 years, but forever!

TWO RESTORATIONS


As the end approaches, things are going to deteriorate in a hurry. If we are to walk in truth, we must guard ourselves against interpreting Scripture to fit our preconceived notions, for "The Lord takes no delight in fools" (Ecc 5:4). Insisting on a literal interpretation of a figurative passage may display our orthodoxy before men, but rob us of what the Lord would have us learn from Scripture. The premillennial interpretation of Isa 11:6-10 is a glaring example of the "literal hermeneutic" carried to the point of absurdity.

Isaiah 11:1-5 has many allegorical elements: "A shoot [or branch] springs from the stem of Jesse . . . a branch from his root will bear fruit . . . He will judge with the rod of His mouth . . . righteousness will be the belt about His loins and faithfulness the belt about his waist," etc., etc. All those expressions are obviously figurative, and all conservative Bible scholars understand this passage to be a pictorial description of the Messiah to be born several hundred years in the future. This prophecy was fulfilled during Jesus' life on Earth, by 32-33AD.

Now, the first time the Jews were driven off their land was when Nebuchadnezzar exiled them to Babylon. The restoration after the Babylonian captivity was the FIRST restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land. By the time of the crucifixion, the Jews had been restored from the captivity and living in the Holy Land for 568 years. Now lets skip verses 6-10 and go to verse11. There we read that the Lord will restore his people to the Holy Land for "a second time!"

Isa 11:11 "Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the SECOND TIME with His hand the remnant of His people."

Thirty-seven years after Jesus was crucified, in 70AD, the Jews were dispersed for a second time into the nations, so the second restoration would have to take place after that. And it did. The second restoration took place in the new nation of Israel, established in 1948AD. In that year, after almost 1900 years among the Gentiles, the Jews were restored to the Holy Land . . . FOR A SECOND TIME! Now look at the chronology:

Isa 11:1-5 About the coming Messiah 32AD

Isa 11:6-10 About when? ????AD

Isa 11:11 About the 2nd restoration 1948AD

Well, if Isa 11, verses 1-5 are about Jesus' life on Earth, and verse 11 can be positively pinned to 1948, to what time do you suppose the verses in between refer? Well, because of context, verses 6-10 would have to refer to the time in between Jesus' life on Earth and 1948, wouldn't they? The only contextually sound way to look at Isa 11:6-10 is figuratively, as a picture of the Christian Era.

Now Premillennialists recognize the figurative elements in Isa 11:1-5: the branch, the root, the fruit, the belt, the breath, and so on. Those common figures are understood by all. No one really expects a literal branch, with leaves and all, to spring out of the forehead of David's father. All theologians recognize this passage as teaching that one of Jesse's descendants will be the Messiah. It is figurative, and they all know it.

But when they read on a couple of verses, and see a lion eating straw, some say: "Ah, that must be literal, and since it hasn't happened yet, it must be going to take place in the millennium. And there is more support for our pre-millennial view." They further pontificate that during the millennium, a "nursing child will really play by the hole of the cobra," and "the leopard will really lie down with the kid," etc., thus doing away with God's natural law. Anything is possible with the Lord, of course, but a literal interpretation of those verses is certainly not their most probable meaning.

Many well-known Bible teachers are famous for accepting figurative interpretations for the figurative language they understand, while demanding a literal interpretation for the figurative language they don't . . . all the while, heralding their orthodoxy by broadcasting their faith in a "literal hermeneutic." But if the passage in question is figurative, a "literal hermeneutic" will not lead anyone to truth. The literal or figurative nature of a Scripture is not determined by the reader, but by the author, and some Scriptures cannot be recognized as literal or figurative unless the principles of hermeneutics are applied without doctrinal bias.

Interestingly enough, many Evangelical groups, including major Evangelical Bible colleges, use the pre-millennial view as a litmus test for orthodoxy. One Christian publisher even trumpets proudly that all of its publications are pre-millennial, as if a differing view on the millennium were mortal sin. But despite its popularity, the weight of scriptural evidence appears to be against the pre-millennial view. It will be interesting to see if the Holy Spirit can quicken the Church to the possibility that it is once again standing dogmatically . . . on false doctrine.

 

[MattHenry]

BUT IS THIS TRUTH IMPORTANT ?

Some ask: "Does it really matter what we believe about the millennium? Isn't soul-winning where it's at?" Then making a steeple of their hands and with their eyes cast heavenwards, they add, "Won't we all end up in Heaven together, anyway?" That kind of unctuous platitude just slays me. The idea that any truth is unimportant is of the devil. It ignores the spiritual nature of the Christian's battle and the shrewdness of the enemy. Spiritual warfare is a never-ending battle for truth. As the father of lies, Satan is the author of every heresy that gets into the Church. Every false doctrine we believe or teach (no matter how minor it may seem to us) helps the enemy and weakens our witness.

But how can pre-millennialism hurt anyone? In the same way the pre-tribulation rapture myth can hurt. By rocking the Church to sleep with the sweet lullaby of "Judgment deferred," with the siren song that "hard times may be coming, but they're coming for the lost during the Great Tribulation, while we, the Church (because of our great piety and holiness), will be at the marriage supper of the Lamb, and later, ruling with Jesus in His wonderful millennial kingdom."

Nothing could be further from the truth! We were appointed as Jesus' spiritual priests and kings for this present age to despoil the domain of the enemy. Every time a saint leads a sinner to the Lord, he is breaking into Satan's house, and carrying off his goods (Mat 12:29). Through the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as affirmed by the blood of the martyrs and the prayers of the saints, the enemy was bound throughout this age, "that he might not deceive the nations."

And he didn't. The whole western world once recognized Jesus as the Christ and that knowledge changed the world, but not any longer. Now the world is changing the Church. Why now? Hasn't sin always been bad and hasn't Satan has always been the father of sin? Of course, but in this generation, the individual saint has forgotten his responsibility for the lost:

Eze 3:18 "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

The world is in the condition it is today because we have not done our job. And just as Scripture warned, Satan has been loosed upon us . . .

Rev 20:7-8 "And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore."

Jesus bound the enemy at the cross (John 12:32) and gave the Church the keys:

Mat 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

But the lukewarm Laodicean church of our own day has again set Satan free. Look at the disgraceful spiritual conditions that have enveloped America during the last four decades. We Christians are responsible -- we are Jesus' kings and priests -- and if we really understand we are responsible, then we get busy serving the Lord so we will "not be ashamed at His coming." If we really believe that "judgment begins at the household of God," then we "work out our own salvation in fear and trembling," in godly fear of those trials "which are coming upon the earth":

Rev 12:11-12 "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even to death. For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

However, if we believe judgment is for the other guy, after we've been raptured out, or believe that judgment is still a thousand years away, ah, that's a different story. Then we can dabble in the materialistic world for a while, repenting when we see the Antichrist coming or when the Great Tribulation begins. Meanwhile, to show our pro-life conservatism, we can lie down in front of an abortion clinic or two while our lost friends and neighbors go to Hell because we did not tell them, that in God's pure eyes, we are all monsters of iniquity, in desperate need of the cleansing blood of His beloved Son.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Originally Posted by: thereselittleflower

Oh . . but it has been fulfilled. .

The Kingdoms of David and Solomon encompassed the entire area promised to Abraham.



InHisDebt replied:
Not according to the maps in the back of my bible they never encompassed any were near the nile or the euphrates rivers.

Inhisdebt,
The maps in the back of your bible are not as trustworthy as the words written within the scriptures themselves.

Consider trusting these words....

Joshua 21:43 "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."


Nehemiah 9:23 "Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. So the children went in and possessed the land"


Psalms 105:42 "For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant. And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness: And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people"



Later in the New Testament, Paul explains that the land promise was extended even further, to contain the entire world.

Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
So we know that by Abraham's seed, (Jesus Christ), is the whole world given into His hands....in complete fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham.

Colossians 3:24 "Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."

 

[inhisdebt]

Inhisdebt,
The maps in the back of your bible are not as trustworthy as the words written within the scriptures themselves.

Consider trusting these words....

Joshua 21:43 "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."


Nehemiah 9:23 "Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. So the children went in and possessed the land"


Psalms 105:42 "For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant. And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness: And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people"



Later in the New Testament, Paul explains that the land promise was extended even further, to contain the entire world.

Romans 4:13 "For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
So we know that by Abraham's seed, (Jesus Christ), is the whole world given into His hands....in complete fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham.

Colossians 3:24 "Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."

Very Good dave, now that is what i consider proof of fullfilled prophacyThanks

 

[yesterdog]

You'll probably have a plethora of folks show up soon who will attempt villianize Amillennialism because it is an alternate expectation to their own view.

I think that's rather unfair...but polarizing positions often look at each other unfairly.

 

[GustheMule]

An important thing to know: We don't take the numbers in Revelation literally.

 

[ETide]

An important thing to know: We don't take the numbers in Revelation literally.

The main distinction between millennialism and amillennialism is timing..

Many believe that the events spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 pertain to the future. These can be considered millennialists.. ie, they're expecting a literal thousand year reign of Christ in the future.

Many believe that the events spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 pertain to the here and now..ie, that we're already in the millennial kingdom of Christ.. These are considered amillennialists because they reject a future thousand year reign and consider it to be taking place right now.

The scripture is the same, it's simply that one camp believes that it pertains to the future whereas the other camp believes that it pertains to the here and now.

timing..

Here are the verses for the record..

Revelation 20:1-6

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[yesterdog]

An important thing to know: We don't take the numbers in Revelation literally.

Why not?

I went to a Baptist church for a number of years...and they took them as literal numbers. I see no reason not to take them as literal numbers.

 

[yesterdog]

The main distinction between millennialism and amillennialism is timing..

Many believe that the events spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 pertain to the future. These can be considered millennialists.. ie, they're expecting a literal thousand year reign of Christ in the future.

Many believe that the events spoken of in Revelation chapter 20 pertain to the here and now..ie, that we're already in the millennial kingdom of Christ.. These are considered amillennialists because they reject a future thousand year reign and consider it to be taking place right now.

The scripture is the same, it's simply that one camp believes that it pertains to the future whereas the other camp believes that it pertains to the here and now.

timing..

Here are the verses for the record..

Revelation 20:1-6

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

And the amillennial view is Augustinian.

Am I correct?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You'll probably have a plethora of folks show up soon who will attempt villianize Amillennialism because it is an alternate expectation to their own view.

I won't. One's view is just as good as another.

An important thing to know: We don't take the numbers in Revelation literally.

Why not?

I went to a Baptist church for a number of years...and they took them as literal numbers. I see no reason not to take them as literal numbers.

So they interpreted the Bible for you? Who interprets it for you now?

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many--whence we know that it is the last hour;

 

[brother daniel]

I won't. One's view is just as good as another.
So they interpreted the Bible for you? Who interprets it for you now?

1 John 2:18 Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many--whence we know that it is the last hour;

Today we each have access to strongs concordance and can do a word for word study of the scriptures from Hebrew and Greek.

The more one studies, prays and acts on the words of Jesus the the clearer ones understanding grows.

The place to start is doing what the Apostles did. REPENT, drop what ever we are doing and heed the WORD of God by following Jesus as the first disciples did. Once you have sold what you have and given to the poor as they did, then you find out who your real friends are. Seek fellowship with others who are living the gospel. How do you find them? Ask among the people you meet who say they are Christions ,If they know anybody who is living the word of God.
As you walk by faith you will have oppertunity to help others. Others will help you as you lift Jesus up.
Love your neighbor.
With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[ETide]

And the amillennial view is Augustinian.

Am I correct?

Most would agree that it is..

It has been said that he (Augustine) originally held to a millennial view but then later changed his mind and considered it as already taking place.. in the here and now.

Vast portions of Christendom are amillennial.. ie, the RCC, the EOC, and even many Protestant denominations.. although there are still many folks who hold to a millennial viewpoint as well.

But I'm pretty sure that most of it stems from Augustine's view of Rev 20. Perhaps somebody will comment on this who has studied it out in a little more detail..

 

[ETide]

When looking at the context of Revelation 20, it becomes obvious that there are a few things tied together here.. ie, they're basically inseparable in the text.

This is why amillennialists insist that Satan is currently bound, and that the First resurrection has already taken place.. because if we're already in the thousand year reign of Christ, as they claim that we are.. then these other things must also follow.. that Satan is bound, and that the first resurrection is past already..

In my estimation, it's fairly easy to show from the scriptures that Satan is not currently bound, and that the first resurrection has not yet taken place.

Amillennialists will obviously differ..